There are no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

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SarathW
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There are no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:47 pm

From another post David said.

There is no good alternative to capitalism except to improve upon it. Socialism and communism only sound good in theory and actually cause much destruction and poverty in practice. And then in reality there was always an underground capitalist system and corruption in all socialist and communist systems. Today the few remaining "communist" countries have all moved toward capitalism and only still call themselves communist so that they don't have to hold democratic elections.

So the best we can do is improve upon it with a mixed-economy. All of the current successful economies of the world today are mixed economies; mostly capitalist, free-enterprise, but with regulations, restrictions and safety nets and safeguards.
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31097&p=455199#p455160


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So I would say There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals.
What is your opinion on the above statement?
Last edited by SarathW on Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:25 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:47 pm
So I would say There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals.
What is your opinion on the above statement?
Sounds reasonable. There are capitalist individuals wielding power over the creation of others (paranimmita-vasavatti deva) that force others, for the sake of survival (dharma), to conform to their way of life. If not for the capitalists, the ordinary people would still be simply hunting & farming.

For example, yesterday was Australia Day and the materialists, like my younger sister, say if the British didn't come to Australia, Australia wouldn't have the material world she loves. Instead, the native people would pitifully be still hunting & gathering.

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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:49 am

Instead, the native people would pitifully be still hunting & gathering.
Well. We hunting gather in a different way but it is still hunting-gathering.
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SarathW
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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:51 am

There are capitalist individuals wielding power over the creation of others (paranimmita-vasavatti deva)
Good point.
I never thought about it in this Buddhist way.
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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:30 am

Greetings Sarath,

If you mean Capitalist as in a person who believes in and advocates for Capitalism, then I guess that's true.

However, economies are indeed capitalist or socialist based on to what extent that which is produced (i.e. Gross Domestic Product) is created with private or public capital.
Nove, Alec. 'Socialism'. New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics, Second Edition (2008). wrote:A society may be defined as socialist if the major part of the means of production of goods and services is in some sense socially owned and operated, by state, socialized or cooperative enterprises. The practical issues of socialism comprise the relationships between management and workforce within the enterprise, the interrelationships between production units (plan versus markets), and, if the state owns and operates any part of the economy, who controls it and how.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:30 am
However, economies are indeed capitalist or socialist based on to what extent that which is produced (i.e. Gross Domestic Product) is created with private or public capital.
I'm pleased you mentioned services, rather than just goods, since, for example, health, tertiary education, and various other services are publically controlled in most Western countries.

Furthermore, in other spheres, the interaction between the government spending of tax revenue and non-public entities is not actually a free market. The US government spends a lot of money on contracts for many aspects of military spending (weapons, aircraft, ships, and so on). Companies, of course, have the freedom to decide to bid for contracts, but the decisions about how much to spend on weapons, etc, is a government decision.

The percentage of GDP that is filtered though taxes is interesting measure. This is around 50% in Scandinavia, 35% in New Zealand, 28% in Romania, 25% in the USA, 20% in China and Russia, 17% in Thailand, 13% in Hong Kong, 1.4% in UAE...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _GDP_ratio

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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by DNS » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:59 am

Yes, there are individual capitalists, but they exist due to the conditions allowed by the nations. Virtually all nations do provide a legal means for the private means of production, so there are capitalist countries as well as individuals. And then as an ideology, as retro noted, one could be called a capitalist if one accepts that ideology, even if one is not an owner of a private business.

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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:05 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:51 am
The percentage of GDP that is filtered though taxes is interesting measure. This is around 50% in Scandinavia, 35% in New Zealand, 28% in Romania, 25% in the USA, 20% in China and Russia, 17% in Thailand, 13% in Hong Kong, 1.4% in UAE...
Agreed, that's the other critical axis - the Planned / Market dichotomy.

Wikipedia: Planned Economy

Despite the high taxation rate, Scandanavia still wouldn't be a "planned" economy, since I'm sure a significant proportion of that 50% taxation is redirected back into private hands via the welfare state.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:31 am

This is around 50% in Scandinavia, 35% in New Zealand, 28% in Romania, 25% in the USA, 20% in China and Russia, 17% in Thailand, 13% in Hong Kong, 1.4% in UAE...
As per link
NZ 34.5%
USA 28.0%
?
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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:32 am

Hmm, I see:
United States 26.0, so I must have mis-typed...

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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:25 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:32 am
Hmm, I see:
United States 26.0, so I must have mis-typed...

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Mike
Well it is coming down... 8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:32 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:47 pm
There is no good alternative to capitalism except to improve upon it.
More specifically, I think it's about preventing capitalism from becoming what DooDoot calls "crony capitalism".

"Crony capitalism" strangles the natural working of market capitalism and only becomes possible when there's "big government", and can consist of factors such as:

- "Pay for play" quid pro quo arrangements
- Awarding contracts based on bribes or "donations" to one's charities
- Mismanagement of government funds, money going "missing"
- Funnelling government funds into your own "charities", of which a minute fraction reaches the intended recipients
- Favours for donors
- Pork barrelling
- Insider trading
- Instigating and sustaining wars in the pursuit of economic and social agendas
- Weaponizing intelligence agencies to unjustly spy on political opponents who are a threat to your crony capitalism
- "Deep state" or "Secret societies" which infiltrate big-government bureaucracy (i.e. unelected officials)

Preventing this corruption from forming requires eternal vigilance - "small government" helps too...

#LockHerUp #ReleaseTheMemo #DrainTheSwamp

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:34 pm

Turning the title around:

There is not a Buddhist sanga, only individual Buddhists.

SarathW
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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:21 am

There is not a Buddhist sanga, only individual Buddhists.
The Buddhist Sangha is as good as the individual Buddhist.

By the way, I just surprised to see Margaret Thatcher made a similar comment.

"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women "

I created a new topic based on this.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31132
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Re: There is no capitalist countries but capitalist individuals?

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:35 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:21 am
There is not a Buddhist sanga, only individual Buddhists.
The Buddhist Sangha is as good as the individual Buddhist.
Good for doing what?
Good for being what?
Good in what way?

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