There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

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theY
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There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

Post by theY » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:34 am
I posted this elsewhere, which says dependent origination 'sankhara' is plural in the suttas but singular in the Abidhamma (by Nyanatiloka).
In abhidhamma-pitaka, there are both plural and singular sankhara. You never study abhidhamma, directly, so you believe the distorted debate with a very bias view. You act like a politician who just try every way to discredit your opposite party without caring the fact, no proving, no evidence.

The commentary already described that the suttanta described dhamma individually, fit for each person to enlightenment//understand. However, the individual sutta also connect to the other suttas, too. So, abhidhamma just enumerate those suttas' contents follow the mātikā which often appear in those individual sutta.

Such as in paṭiccasamuppāda-vibhaṅga, that the suttanta-naya (1st section) are showing the complex paṭiccasamuppāda, such as in S.N. Nidānavagga Vibhaṅgasutta. This complex paṭiccasamuppāda often appear in many suttas. But in nidānavagga also have many sutta which taught the individual paṭiccasamuppāda, too, such as in S.N. Nidānavagga Bhūmijasutta and A.N. Tikanipāta Saṅkhārasutta.

So, saṅkhāra in abhidhammanaya describling follow A.N. Tikanipāta Saṅkhārasutta to enumerate suttantanaya for analysis. However, there are more property than that sutta follow the book name "vibhaṅga-analysis", "abhidhamma-the most specification dhamma", and follow abhidhamma-mātikā. So, sāriputta also connect paṭiccasamuppāda with many other suttas, too.

Therefore, the abhidhammanaya just enumerate paṭiccasamuppāda follow to those individual sutta, then use the singular saṅkhāra follow that each case, too.

So, we can conclude that both singular and pural saṅkhāra are appear in abhidhamma because both words appear in abhidhamma-piṭaka and we can found the singular saṅkhāra in sutta, also.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:34 am
I posted this elsewhere, which says dependent origination 'sankhara' is plural in the suttas but singular in the Abidhamma (by Nyanatiloka).

Added:
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:49 pm
theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
You act like a politician who just try every way to discredit your opposite party without caring the fact, no proving, no evidence.
I think it is proper for you to provide the evidence. Instead of attacking others, like a politician, why don't you simply provide a direct quote from Abhidhamma showing sankhara used as "plural" when naming the 2nd condition of dependent origination. Thanks :smile:
theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
Such as in paṭiccasamuppāda-vibhaṅga, that the suttanta-naya (1st section) are showing the complex paṭiccasamuppāda
Sorry. This is not good enough. Please show exactly where "sankhara" as the 2nd condition is a plural.
Everything you want is already in the link I have given above. You can press "PaliRoman" button to switch to pāli modeby yourself. For the example:

TIPITAKA Volume 35 : PALI ROMAN
Abhidhamma Pitaka Vol 2 : Abhi. Vibhaṅgo
Paccayākāravibhaṅgo:

From above abhidhamma-pitaka link, you can found these both sentences:

Plural:
[255]Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā
Singular:
[274] Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:49 pm
theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
such as in S.N. Nidānavagga Vibhaṅgasutta. This complex paṭiccasamuppāda often appear in many suttas. But in nidānavagga also have many sutta which taught the individual paṭiccasamuppāda, too, such as in S.N. Nidānavagga Bhūmijasutta and A.N. Tikanipāta Saṅkhārasutta.
...
So, we can conclude that both singular and pural saṅkhāra are appear in abhidhamma because both words appear in abhidhamma-piṭaka and we can found the singular saṅkhāra in sutta, also.
Sorry. But this is not the correct way to have a discussion. To have a discussion, clear communication is required.
TIPITAKA Volume 16 : PALI ROMAN
Sutta Pitaka Vol 8 : Sutta. Saṃ. Ni.
S.N. Nidānavagga Vibhaṅgasutta:
[16] Katame ca bhikkhave saṅkhārā (plural) tayome bhikkhave saṅkhārā
kāyasaṅkhāro (singular) vacīsaṅkhāro (singular) cittasaṅkhāro (singular) ime vuccanti bhikkhave
saṅkhārā.
TIPITAKA Volume 16 : PALI ROMAN
Sutta Pitaka Vol 8 : Sutta. Saṃ. Ni.
S.N. Nidānavagga Bhūmijasutta:
[83] Kāye vā hānanda sati kāyasañcetanāhetu (singular) uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ vācāyaṃ vā hānanda sati vacīsañcetanāhetu (singular)
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ mane vā hānanda sati
manosañcetanāhetu (singular) uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . avijjāpaccayāva
sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ 1- uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . pare vāyataṃ 2- ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti 3-
yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ
ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ
sukhadukkhaṃ . asampajāno vā taṃ ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti
yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda
vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ .
Pare vāyataṃ ānanda vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ ānanda .pe.
Asampajāno vā taṃ ānanda vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ
abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . pare
vāyataṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ ānanda .pe. asampajāno
vā taṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Imesu ānanda [1]- dhammesu avijjā anupatitā.
Many results appear when searched a singular saṅkhāra "kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti", "vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti", "cittasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti" in tipitaka-pāli search engine.
Last edited by theY on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
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DooDoot
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Re: There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:49 pm

theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
You act like a politician who just try every way to discredit your opposite party without caring the fact, no proving, no evidence.
I think it is proper for you to provide the evidence. Instead of attacking others, like a politician, why don't you simply provide a direct quote from Abhidhamma showing sankhara used as "plural" when naming the 2nd condition of dependent origination. Thanks :smile:
theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
Such as in paṭiccasamuppāda-vibhaṅga, that the suttanta-naya (1st section) are showing the complex paṭiccasamuppāda
Sorry. This is not good enough. Please show exactly where "sankhara" as the 2nd condition is a plural.
theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
such as in S.N. Nidānavagga Vibhaṅgasutta. This complex paṭiccasamuppāda often appear in many suttas. But in nidānavagga also have many sutta which taught the individual paṭiccasamuppāda, too, such as in S.N. Nidānavagga Bhūmijasutta and A.N. Tikanipāta Saṅkhārasutta.
Sorry. But this is not the correct way to have a discussion. To have a discussion, clear communication is required.

theY
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Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

Post by theY » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:20 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:49 pm
theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
You act like a politician who just try every way to discredit your opposite party without caring the fact, no proving, no evidence.
I think it is proper for you to provide the evidence. Instead of attacking others, like a politician, why don't you simply provide a direct quote from Abhidhamma showing sankhara used as "plural" when naming the 2nd condition of dependent origination. Thanks :smile:
theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
Such as in paṭiccasamuppāda-vibhaṅga, that the suttanta-naya (1st section) are showing the complex paṭiccasamuppāda
Sorry. This is not good enough. Please show exactly where "sankhara" as the 2nd condition is a plural.
Everything you want is already in the link I have given above. You can press "PaliRoman" button to switch to pāli modeby yourself. For the example:

TIPITAKA Volume 35 : PALI ROMAN
Abhidhamma Pitaka Vol 2 : Abhi. Vibhaṅgo
Paccayākāravibhaṅgo:

From above abhidhamma-pitaka link, you can found these both sentences:

Plural:
[255]Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā
Singular:
[274] Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:49 pm
theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm
such as in S.N. Nidānavagga Vibhaṅgasutta. This complex paṭiccasamuppāda often appear in many suttas. But in nidānavagga also have many sutta which taught the individual paṭiccasamuppāda, too, such as in S.N. Nidānavagga Bhūmijasutta and A.N. Tikanipāta Saṅkhārasutta.
...
So, we can conclude that both singular and pural saṅkhāra are appear in abhidhamma because both words appear in abhidhamma-piṭaka and we can found the singular saṅkhāra in sutta, also.
TIPITAKA Volume 16 : PALI ROMAN
Sutta Pitaka Vol 8 : Sutta. Saṃ. Ni.
S.N. Nidānavagga Vibhaṅgasutta:
[16] Katame ca bhikkhave saṅkhārā (plural) tayome bhikkhave saṅkhārā
kāyasaṅkhāro (singular) vacīsaṅkhāro (singular) cittasaṅkhāro (singular) ime vuccanti bhikkhave
saṅkhārā.
TIPITAKA Volume 16 : PALI ROMAN
Sutta Pitaka Vol 8 : Sutta. Saṃ. Ni.
S.N. Nidānavagga Bhūmijasutta:
[83] Kāye vā hānanda sati kāyasañcetanāhetu (singular) uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ vācāyaṃ vā hānanda sati vacīsañcetanāhetu (singular)
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ mane vā hānanda sati
manosañcetanāhetu (singular) uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . avijjāpaccayāva
sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ 1- uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . pare vāyataṃ 2- ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti 3-
yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ
ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ
sukhadukkhaṃ . asampajāno vā taṃ ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti
yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda
vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ .
Pare vāyataṃ ānanda vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ ānanda .pe.
Asampajāno vā taṃ ānanda vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ
abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . pare
vāyataṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ ānanda .pe. asampajāno
vā taṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Imesu ānanda [1]- dhammesu avijjā anupatitā.
Many results appear when searched a singular saṅkhāra "kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti", "vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti", "cittasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti" in tipitaka-pāli search engine.
Last edited by theY on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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dylanj
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Re: There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

Post by dylanj » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:26 pm

It's singular in the suttas too when the second link is defined in terms of body, verbal, mental preperation

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... NMS_LE.pdf

p124
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:53 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:26 pm
It's singular in the suttas too when the second link is defined in terms of body, verbal, mental preperation
Thanks Dylan but this has not contributed anything to the discussion, here. Of course it is singular above, given these are the single sankhara that comprise of the contents or basket of the plural. The suttas say: "What are the sankharas (plural)? The sakharas (plural) are comprised of the body (singular), verbal (singular) & mind [not mental] (singular) sankharo". 3 x 1 (single) = plural.

As for The Y's post, I will reply later.

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DooDoot
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Re: There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:15 am

theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:20 pm
TIPITAKA Volume 35 : PALI ROMAN
Abhidhamma Pitaka Vol 2 : Abhi. Vibhaṅgo
Paccayākāravibhaṅgo:

From above abhidhamma-pitaka link, you can found these both sentences:

Plural:
[255]Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā
Singular:
[274] Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro
I still think you need to provide a reasoned view rather than recite scripture because you make the other person do the work; which is contrary to Dhamma.

For example, the above text, even though it linguistically correctly uses the plural (in red), is contrary to the teachings of the suttas plus it seems dhammically wrong because, in the Dhamma of the Buddha, the three sankharo can arise together but, based on the list below, these singular sankharo cannot all arise together. The text below does not appear to be Dhamma but appears to be merely an encyclopedic list of words created by non-meditators.
Tattha katame avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā puññābhisaṅkhāro apuññābhisaṅkhāro āneñjābhisaṅkhāro kāyasaṅkhāro vacīsaṅkhāro cittasaṅkhāro . tattha katamo puññābhisaṅkhāro kusalā cetanā kāmāvacarā rūpāvacarā dānamayā sīlamayā bhāvanāmayā ayaṃ vuccati puññābhisaṅkhāro . tattha katamo apuññābhisaṅkhāro akusalā cetanā Kāmāvacarā ayaṃ vuccati apuññābhisaṅkhāro . tattha katamo āneñjābhisaṅkhāro kusalā cetanā arūpāvacarā ayaṃ vuccati āneñjābhisaṅkhāro . tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro kāyasañcetanā kāyasaṅkhāro vacīsañcetanā vacīsaṅkhāro manosañcetanā cittasaṅkhāro. Ime vuccanti avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:22 am

theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:20 pm
TIPITAKA Volume 16 : PALI ROMAN
Sutta Pitaka Vol 8 : Sutta. Saṃ. Ni.
S.N. Nidānavagga Vibhaṅgasutta:
[16] Katame ca bhikkhave saṅkhārā (plural) tayome bhikkhave saṅkhārā
kāyasaṅkhāro (singular) vacīsaṅkhāro (singular) cittasaṅkhāro (singular) ime vuccanti bhikkhave
saṅkhārā.
This is just a copy of the suttas. Just because Abidhamma may repeat the suttas exactly in one place in the Abidhamma does not mean all of the Abidhamma is correct. So far, two out of three examples from the Abidhamma appear to be different to the suttas.
Katame ca bhikkhave saṅkhārā tayome bhikkhave saṅkhārā kāyasaṅkhāro vacīsaṅkhāro cittasaṅkhāro ime vuccanti bhikkhave saṅkhārā.

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DooDoot
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Re: There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:25 am

theY wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:20 pm
TIPITAKA Volume 16 : PALI ROMAN
Sutta Pitaka Vol 8 : Sutta. Saṃ. Ni.
S.N. Nidānavagga Bhūmijasutta:
[83] Kāye vā hānanda sati kāyasañcetanāhetu (singular) uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ vācāyaṃ vā hānanda sati vacīsañcetanāhetu (singular)
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ mane vā hānanda sati
manosañcetanāhetu (singular) uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . avijjāpaccayāva
sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ 1- uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . pare vāyataṃ 2- ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti 3-
yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ
ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ
sukhadukkhaṃ . asampajāno vā taṃ ānanda kāyasaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti
yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda
vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ .
Pare vāyataṃ ānanda vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ ānanda .pe.
Asampajāno vā taṃ ānanda vacīsaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ
uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sāmaṃ vā taṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ
abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . pare
vāyataṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ . sampajāno vā taṃ ānanda .pe. asampajāno
vā taṃ ānanda manosaṅkhāraṃ (singular) abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāyataṃ uppajjati
ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Imesu ānanda [1]- dhammesu avijjā anupatitā.
Many results appear when searched a singular saṅkhāra "kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti", "vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti", "cittasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti" in tipitaka-pāli search engine.
Similar to Dylan's post, the above example is not relevant to the discussion because the Pali words above must be singular.

In conclusion, in at least two places in the Abidhamma, the 2nd condition of Dependent Origination appears to be explained different to the Suttas.

:smile:

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