Sotapanna

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 491
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:17 pm

It would be interesting to be considered by a "wise enough" mind, but i'm not sure I would regard it more than just another personal opinion.

:)
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:52 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:20 am
The thing is it is not something to fixate on.
There is a path to the end of suffering and those that have reached the final goal know the way.
Along the way every individual must pass through certain stages or realizations or wisdoms. Like traveling to the market you know you must walk to the set of lights cross the road make a right walk to the church, first street past church make a right pass the beer store and the market should come into view. There is no fixation on each waypoint as you pass them you let them go they are just helpful to follow the path.
This is your 'ideal' that you are explaining, not the actual experience that you have. You are conceiving of a path and creating landmarks within it. This is what is called 'the dream of existence'. It has no actual reality, it is a fiction created in our mental landscape. All this is impermanent, without substance. That is the real message of the masters.

thepea
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:12 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:52 am
This is your 'ideal' that you are explaining, not the actual experience that you have. You are conceiving of a path and creating landmarks within it. This is what is called 'the dream of existence'. It has no actual reality, it is a fiction created in our mental landscape. All this is impermanent, without substance. That is the real message of the masters.
Tell that to my children.

Impermanence is only fourth waypoint on the path, It is not the complete message of the masters though.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:55 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:12 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:52 am
This is your 'ideal' that you are explaining, not the actual experience that you have. You are conceiving of a path and creating landmarks within it. This is what is called 'the dream of existence'. It has no actual reality, it is a fiction created in our mental landscape. All this is impermanent, without substance. That is the real message of the masters.
Tell that to my children.

Impermanence is only fourth waypoint on the path, It is not the complete message of the masters though.
Give me their mobile numbers and we can have a chat. :D

User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 pm

What does Goenka has to say about stream entry ? What does stream entry mean in the Goenka tradition ?

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1717
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:18 pm

the monk who is a learner reflects, 'Is there outside of this [doctrine & discipline] any brahman or contemplative who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One?' And he discerns, 'No, there is no brahman or contemplative outside of this doctrine & discipline who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One.'
Sekha Sutta

thepea
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:28 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:55 pm

Give me their mobile numbers and we can have a chat. :D
They would drive you nuts, no point in you suffering needlessly. :P

thepea
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:32 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 pm
What does Goenka has to say about stream entry ? What does stream entry mean in the Goenka tradition ?
Same as what has been discussed here you can google Goenka sotapanna and an article he wrote should pop up.

What does it mean to you and we could compare if there is any discrepancy?

User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:18 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:32 pm
Circle5 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 pm
What does Goenka has to say about stream entry ? What does stream entry mean in the Goenka tradition ?
Same as what has been discussed here you can google Goenka sotapanna and an article he wrote should pop up.

What does it mean to you and we could compare if there is any discrepancy?
I googled but nothing pops up regarding this topic. It's probably because goenka does not post too much info online and holds all the info on the video tapes. And the video tapes can not be found online for free.

thepea
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:50 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:18 pm

I googled but nothing pops up regarding this topic. It's probably because goenka does not post too much info online and holds all the info on the video tapes. And the video tapes can not be found online for free.
Sorry I’m on my iPhone and don’t know how to cut
And paste the article it’s there and it’s free.
Videos of 10 day courses are also online free but the longer courses do not have video just audio but they are not available online.

Again what is your definition? and I’m happy to go over any differences of opinion.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16543
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Sotapanna

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:11 am

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:18 pm
I googled but nothing pops up regarding this topic. ....
No problem when I Google...
http://www.vridhamma.org/en2007-06

:heart:
Mike

thepea
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:21 am

Thanks mike that was the exact article I was looking at. :thumbsup:

SIA
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:24 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by SIA » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:22 am

Long post, but it’s what you’re looking for...

So one thing most of you have not addressed is that Sotapanna expresses itself in two stages. Sotapanni-Magga, the moment of entering the stream(Stream entry) And the original subject focus word Sotapanna (stream winner). The first stage of this is accessible to those who can fathom the dhamma. Just understanding it is enough for you to be considered Sotapanni-Magga. This is still considered an Ariya. Sotapanna (stream winner) can be thought of the culmination of applying your undertanding to your practice, it is something you actively cultivate. You are experiencing it. There is a difference between understanding the path and walking it. I.E the difference between seeing the fruit and enjoying a bite from it. That is the difference between the two Sotapanna distinctions. The Sotapanni- Magga, the one who understands, uses his glimpse of the dharma to help him in the process of shaving off the first three fetters. So it is a process, eventually resulting in a full sotapanna. You gain stream “entry” through glimpsing the dharma. You understand and are aware of its existence but you can still be foggy in the art of applying it. Because the other fetters are still acting on you. A sotapanna, especially a sotapanni-magga are not perfect individuals. Think of Sotopanni-magga as point A and sotapanna as point B. You must walk a distance to be able to reach for the fruit. A Sotapanni-Magga can be aware of the distance between his awareness and his persona AKA attachment of self. You can understand this and still not be actively trying to detach from it completely, which is a quality of a full Sotapanna. I am personally at a point where I can practice detaching from my personality and live in the true moment, not associated or influenced by anything, just simple sensory recording of what’s around me, I can take no personal thought/reaction to it.

I think this is a the part where I reveal I have become sotapanna-maggi. It takes no specific amount of meditation, although it helps. It all comes down to whether you are aware of the dharma, Natural Law, the logistical tenets of existence. These things become logic for a sotapanna. Once you see them as logic it is hard to tear you away. This is the feeling so often attributed to the sotapanna in scripture as believing in the Buddha as the only teacher. Because his teachings are of the dharma. This understanding though has an esoteric nature. This is not to discourage you, it is just a rare occurance. It’s very experience based. So many of you on this forum are looking for a way to put this mental state into words but it is very difficult, because of its experiential nature.

You need to think of it as a sort of ink blot test. The person or researcher conducting the test hands you a card with obscure black blobs on it and you hand it back saying it looks like a bunch of blobs. When he hands it back to you this time he says look for a dog or for Jesus or whatever. And dammit you see the dog this time. But you understand that the original image you saw of The disparate blobs has not changed. You are just taking in the image differently. No new blobs were added to that card, you are just seeing the connectiveness in the image; what these black blobs create together instead of what they are as separate. The connectiveness of things is essitially dharma. So it is the image you are looking at but also the lens at which your looking through as well. So the visuals of life do not change, you have just taken a different meaning/reactive thought to what you see. This is a good analogy for seeing the dharma. It is right in front of your face, it just needs to be pointed out. Meditation is a good guide but also just practicing awareness helps, and if you’re on this page I am hoping you already know the steps to expand awareness as it’s one of the first techniques you learn in Buddhist mind cultivation. That is why it is experiential, it needs to come into your experimence , otherwise it’s true undertanding will evade you. If you have never tasted basil, it would be impossible for me to truly explain what basil tastes like. The only way for me to explain is to force feed you basil.
Now I know that was long but it was to emphasize the importance of the stage I am currently in (not a flex). Just undertanding is so immensely important. Just fathoming the idea of the dharma is enough to gain entry to the stream (sotapanni magga.

So the process starts with expaing the consciousness. That is how you will find methods to see the connectiveness of things. If you understand these small ink-blot moments that will occur, you can apply them to any level of analysis you want. That is the beauty of the experience. Once you have it, you will not be able to think differently, just as on the ink blot card, once you see the dog you will always see the dog afterwards. because the experience has made it tangible logic to you. So it’s not meditation nesscarily. At the risk of these forum-goers not believing me any more than they probably don’t, it might seriously surprise you to hear that I am only 19 years old. I go to college and I live in Florida. These attainments are achieved by anyone who can understand it fully. That is when you will start applying it, as I do in school, whether it’s at a club, or whatever.
A sotapanna or at least a sotapanni-magga such as myself does not have a completely untainted Sila. Yes, the sotapanna detaches from the self as well, and before any of you hit me with the judgments of how many times I used the word “I”, just remember that I understand these things, I am in the process of living them. Sotapanna is not an easy feat. I could spend my whole life trying to go from stream entry to stream winner. Keep that in mind, I am open to any of your questions.

Ps. I apologize if there are variations in my response from Dharma to Dhamma or whatever it was auto correct.
Last edited by SIA on Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thepea
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:49 pm

SIA wrote
“The Sotapanni- Magga, the one who understands, uses his glimpse of the dharma to help him in the process of shaving off the first three fetters. So it is a process, eventually resulting in a full sotapanna”

What do you mean by glimpse?
Does this glimpse not instantly destroy the 3 fetters?

SIA
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:24 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by SIA » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:22 pm

So as explained in my response, “entering the stream” is merely just undertanding the dharma. Your glimpse makes you solid in your stance that the dhamma is the sole choreographer. It’s understood on a level that is not achievable to most in their lifetime. This undertanding is what allows you to destroy the three fetters, but as I said it is a process. You do not immediately destroy the three fetters upon entering the stream. If that happened there would be no distance to walk from Sotapanni Maggi to full Sotapanna. So think of your glimpse of the dhamma as your vehicle in which to get to full sotapanna. Your fetters do not simply drop away, it is all subject to the degree in which you apply your undertanding of the No-self and the dharma. I hope that helped.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: auto, Bundokji, Circle5, gavesako, JohnK, robertk, Sobhana, Zom and 94 guests