Sotapanna

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
DCM
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Sotapanna

Post by DCM » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm

Why wouldn't a Sotapanna reveal himeslf? I know the Buddha said to monks to not tell Laity about their achievements, but didn't he say they could reveal them to other Monks?

So it would follow that Laity can reveal their attainments to other Laity. I think it could be encouraging if people would say they are Sotapanna (although i understand it could not be verified by anyone other than their teacher or themself), as it would show that it is possible to reach the first path in these times.

So, is there anyone here who believes they are Sotapanna or has been verified Sotapanna by their teacher? I believe any disparaging remarks or disbelief would not bother a Sotapanna as they have transgressed personality belief, so what's the problem?

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Nwad » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:06 pm

Greetings DCM,
I think that if someone reveals it here, it will generate some unwolesomes states of mind in some others peoples.

For me, there is no more motivating and encouraging thing than Suttas or Dhamma Talks of teachers. And if some Sotapanna will describe his experience (true or false) here, it will not sound much more different from Suttas, so...
...But i agree that it would be intresting to hear some Sotapanna, and talk to him ;)

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:16 pm

DCM wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
Why wouldn't a Sotapanna reveal himeslf? I know the Buddha said to monks to not tell Laity about their achievements, but didn't he say they could reveal them to other Monks?

So it would follow that Laity can reveal their attainments to other Laity. I think it could be encouraging if people would say they are Sotapanna (although i understand it could not be verified by anyone other than their teacher or themself), as it would show that it is possible to reach the first path in these times.

So, is there anyone here who believes they are Sotapanna or has been verified Sotapanna by their teacher? I believe any disparaging remarks or disbelief would not bother a Sotapanna as they have transgressed personality belief, so what's the problem?
I'm not certain, but I think the guy at puredhamma.net has claimed this stage.

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Crazy cloud » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:19 pm

I guess that a Sotapanna knows deeply what actions creates stress, and would therefore not be inclined to publicly announce attainments - another question is if it takes one to know one ..., and for the rest of us its all speculations and not worth wasting energy on ..

Personally I believe that a genuine wise mind would know when to speak and when to be silent

my 50 cent
Last edited by Crazy cloud on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

thepea
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:22 pm

Verified, without a doubt certified.

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Nwad » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:54 pm

Is this a Sotapanna experiance?

http://ajahnsucitto.org/articles/the-eightfold-path/

"Samādhi is not a concentration that you do, it’s a centred and pleasurable unity that occurs as a result of right view, right effort and right mindfulness.

Although the practice of mindfulness and concentration is immensely remedial in terms of clearing out stress, worry, and obsessive moods, it has a further development; which is the understanding that liberates the practitioner from the very source of suffering and stress. This understanding, called ‘insight’, both attunes you to the ephemeral nature of what is happening, and puts you in touch with the steady ever-presence of awareness itself. Sensing this time and time again, an involuntary shift takes place: your centre moves to that pure awareness. In daily life, you can act from that awareness with compassion and clarity; and in meditation, you can let all the events subside, and dwell in a bright, unhindered presence. This leads to nibbāna, the fulfilment of the Eightfold Path. As you get to sense this, even in glimpses, you don’t get caught up in hankering or dejection; there’s no frustration, no need to defend, and nothing you have to prove. Just this is an end to suffering and stress."

User avatar
LG2V
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:40 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by LG2V » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:34 pm

There are users on this forum who have declared themselves to be Sotapanna. Search for some of the old threads and you'll get an idea of the type of reception they receive.
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

User avatar
archaic
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:42 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

Re: Sotapanna

Post by archaic » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:39 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:19 pm

Personally I believe that a genuine wise mind would know when to speak and when to be silent
Very true
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Circle5
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Circle5 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:33 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:54 pm
Is this a Sotapanna experiance?

http://ajahnsucitto.org/articles/the-eightfold-path/

"Samādhi is not a concentration that you do, it’s a centred and pleasurable unity that occurs as a result of right view, right effort and right mindfulness.

Although the practice of mindfulness and concentration is immensely remedial in terms of clearing out stress, worry, and obsessive moods, it has a further development; which is the understanding that liberates the practitioner from the very source of suffering and stress. This understanding, called ‘insight’, both attunes you to the ephemeral nature of what is happening, and puts you in touch with the steady ever-presence of awareness itself. Sensing this time and time again, an involuntary shift takes place: your centre moves to that pure awareness. In daily life, you can act from that awareness with compassion and clarity; and in meditation, you can let all the events subside, and dwell in a bright, unhindered presence. This leads to nibbāna, the fulfilment of the Eightfold Path. As you get to sense this, even in glimpses, you don’t get caught up in hankering or dejection; there’s no frustration, no need to defend, and nothing you have to prove. Just this is an end to suffering and stress."
Not from a buddhist point of view. There are many traditions that borrowed this term "sotapanna", same as they borrowed a lot of other terms from buddhism, and use them in a totally different way.

When we speak about sotapanna in a buddhist sense, we speak about removing the view that there is a self. As for how that is done, we can search the suttas since there are hundreds of cases of people attaining it. All did it the same way, not a single one did it differently. And of course it has nothing to do with meditation. Without knowing how those people did it in the past, without using the same method, there is no way for one to achieve it. So first step is finding out how people did it in Buddha times.

User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 am
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Sotapanna

Post by dylanj » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:12 pm

DCM wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
Why wouldn't a Sotapanna reveal himeslf?
They do, if they want to. Things should be said at the right time, not the wrong time.
Vera Sutta, AN 10.92 wrote:When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream-entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
DCM wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
I know the Buddha said to monks to not tell Laity about their achievements, but didn't he say they could reveal them to other Monks?
Where did the Buddha say this? I have been of the understanding there is a prohibition of monks declaring attainment falsely, & monks are certainly allowed to rightfully declare it among themselves/to the Buddha, but I suppose I don't know of a counterexample for your claim here.
DCM wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
So it would follow that Laity can reveal their attainments to other Laity. I think it could be encouraging if people would say they are Sotapanna (although i understand it could not be verified by anyone other than their teacher or themself), as it would show that it is possible to reach the first path in these times.
Maybe, but would everyone take their word for it? What if someone didn't believe them & yet it was true, that could be bad kamma for the skeptic. I think there are other reasons to not declare it as well. But declaring it privately with someone trustworthy can potentially be beneficial, I'm not so sure about an outright declaration. I for one have no doubt it is possible to reach the first path (this is not a declaration of attainment :D ) & do not need an example of confirmation to hold that faith.
DCM wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
So, is there anyone here who believes they are Sotapanna or has been verified Sotapanna by their teacher?
Who verifies the teacher?
DCM wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
I believe any disparaging remarks or disbelief would not bother a Sotapanna as they have transgressed personality belief, so what's the problem?
They still have conceit, ill-will, aversion, passion...
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

freedom
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:44 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by freedom » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:25 pm

Once one understands "the more I get, the more I suffer" and lives accordingly with that understanding, the more he/she lives with that principle, the less "I, my" he/she gets. Once he/she no longer holds on to whatever related to "I, my", he/she cuts off self-view (view that has "I, my" in it). He/she will clearly see the path, know what he/she should or should not do. Doubt is cut off and he/she is a sotapanna. However, because he/she understands and accepts that principle, he/she does not want to 'get' that "sotapanna" title. "I am a sotapanna" is suffering.

Even though he/she does not want to get that "sotapana" title and may never declare that, he/she is still a sotapanna. Declaring that realization to his/her teacher is to look for more advice or corrections or just for answering an inquiry. Not for achievement, praise, recognition, awards or pride.

He/she is a sotapanna because he/she has entered the stream. That's why he/she is called a stream-enterer. What stream did he/she enter? He/she entered the "dispassion, relinquishment, cessation" stream. He/she no longer wants to get anything for himself/herself while ordinary people always want more for themselves. He/she will try to eliminate the notion of "me, my, I" from all experiences while ordinary people will try to identify and tie themselves into them. He/she is going against the normal stream that ordinary people are following.

I am a sotapanna, my students love me, that is my monastery, I know the doctrine and you don't, I have achieved all jhanas, I am a senior monk so you must respect and serve me, that is my teacher, I am a true Buddhist, I want to have a better life, this is my country... All is just about the identity "I" (me, my, mine, myself)- Note that me, my, mine, myself implies the "I" in it!

Without that identity "I, me, my, mine..." in one's mind, there is sotapanna, but there is no notion of "I am a sotapanna" or "I am not a sotapanna". There are students, but there is no such thing as "my students" or "not my students", there is monastery, but there is no such thing as "my monastery" or "not my monastery", there is a body but there is no such thing as my body or not my body, there is a feeling but there is no such thing as my feeling or not my feeling, there is pain but there is no such thing as my pain or I am in pain or "not my pain", there is happiness but there is no such thing as my happiness or I am happy or "not my happiness"... Without "I, me, my, mine..." we are not of the experience, we are not in the experience, we are not apart from the experience, we are not seeing the experience to be "mine", we do not delight in the experience. We are nowhere to be found. That is the path to end all sufferings.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

2600htz
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by 2600htz » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:23 am

Hello:

Because it would be incredible troublesome for that person to make such claims.
Even among monks, its something you would only discuss with people you trust.

In today´s world everyone has a different notion of what a Sotapanna really is: you would have to deal with pride, with grudges, with people expecting you act more wholesome, etc. A Sotapanna still has identity issues even if he abandoned "the fetter of self-view".

Regards.

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Nwad » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:19 am

Circle5 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:33 pm
Not from a buddhist point of view. There are many traditions that borrowed this term "sotapanna", same as they borrowed a lot of other terms from buddhism, and use them in a totally different way.

When we speak about sotapanna in a buddhist sense, we speak about removing the view that there is a self. As for how that is done, we can search the suttas since there are hundreds of cases of people attaining it. All did it the same way, not a single one did it differently. And of course it has nothing to do with meditation. Without knowing how those people did it in the past, without using the same method, there is no way for one to achieve it. So first step is finding out how people did it in Buddha times.
But Ajhan Sucitto is a Mahathera, and here he explains what is "the end of suffering" and Eightfold Path, or from your point of wiev he (and what he teaches) is not a buddhist ?

Circle5
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:45 am

Nwad wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:19 am
Circle5 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:33 pm
Not from a buddhist point of view. There are many traditions that borrowed this term "sotapanna", same as they borrowed a lot of other terms from buddhism, and use them in a totally different way.

When we speak about sotapanna in a buddhist sense, we speak about removing the view that there is a self. As for how that is done, we can search the suttas since there are hundreds of cases of people attaining it. All did it the same way, not a single one did it differently. And of course it has nothing to do with meditation. Without knowing how those people did it in the past, without using the same method, there is no way for one to achieve it. So first step is finding out how people did it in Buddha times.
But Ajhan Sucitto is a Mahathera, and here he explains what is "the end of suffering" and Eightfold Path, or from your point of wiev he (and what he teaches) is not a buddhist ?
There are hundreds of cases of people attaining stream entry in the suttas. All did it in the same way, not a single one of them did it differently. There are even cases where they explain how they did it.

If you can find a single instance out of 10.000 pag of suttas where somebody attains stream entry in the way Ajan Sucitto described it, please post that sutta.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:10 am

Circle5 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:45 am
Nwad wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:19 am
Circle5 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:33 pm
Not from a buddhist point of view. There are many traditions that borrowed this term "sotapanna", same as they borrowed a lot of other terms from buddhism, and use them in a totally different way.

When we speak about sotapanna in a buddhist sense, we speak about removing the view that there is a self. As for how that is done, we can search the suttas since there are hundreds of cases of people attaining it. All did it the same way, not a single one did it differently. And of course it has nothing to do with meditation. Without knowing how those people did it in the past, without using the same method, there is no way for one to achieve it. So first step is finding out how people did it in Buddha times.
But Ajhan Sucitto is a Mahathera, and here he explains what is "the end of suffering" and Eightfold Path, or from your point of wiev he (and what he teaches) is not a buddhist ?
There are hundreds of cases of people attaining stream entry in the suttas. All did it in the same way, not a single one of them did it differently. There are even cases where they explain how they did it.

If you can find a single instance out of 10.000 pag of suttas where somebody attains stream entry in the way Ajan Sucitto described it, please post that sutta.
Theoretically, the 5 Hindrances are overcome for one to be Sotapanna. Not everyone will overcome them in the same way due to their individual makeup. The path is laid out in the suttas, but what is met on this path will vary accordingly with the walker. Many other traditions lay out their own path that seems to yield the same outcome if one can open their mind. How we overcome these 5 Hindrances varies even in Buddhism. Metta practice is also another way within Theravada.

Things were a lot different 2500 years ago than they are today. People were not as distracted and challenged in their lives as they are now. It would seem much harder today to be a practitioner of any tradition let alone a stream enterer. Conditions change. Nothing remains the same.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bundokji, Google [Bot], robertk and 102 guests