An interesting news reposted on the Buddhist Channel today:
... Ayya Medhanandi, a Buddhist nun, hopes to soon ordain women in the Theravada tradition at her hermitage just west of Perth ...
(this town is in Ontario, Canada -- not to be confused with Perth, Western Australia):
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 18,0,0,1,0
About Ven Medhanandi and her hermitage: http://www.satisaraniya.ca
Suan.
Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
Holy cats this never occurred to me - what if Ajahn Brahm's actions were just the first domino?!
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
Catmoon
Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.
Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.
-----------------------
Bankei
Bankei
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
... I wonder if AB rocognised the domino effect as well ... your sleuthing and deduction work is impeccable catmoonPost by catmoon » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:53 pm
Holy cats this never occurred to me - what if Ajahn Brahm's actions were just the first domino?!
True, but are those Bhikkunis accepted as equals?Post by Bankei » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:06 pm
Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.
With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
After the couple of transmission from Chinese Dhammagutta lineages in the 80s and 90s, (still continuing to this day), there have been quite a few. After a decade, they started to be just Theravada to Theravada ordinations.Bankei wrote:Catmoon
Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.
Interesting little historical summary here (2006). (But they are confused about what a "mahayana lineage" is, and should state Dhammagutta.)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
it is highly unlikely as bhikkhuni ordination was already happening via the Sri Lankan Sangha.catmoon wrote:Holy cats this never occurred to me - what if Ajahn Brahm's actions were just the first domino?!
some are singly ordained, (the preceptor at Brahm ordination as an example) and others were double ordained by the Bhishuni sangha of the Dharmagumpa (sp?) Line and Sri Lankan Sangha. wikipedia has all the information normally heard about it.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
There is a thread on this wat somewhere, and from the information they are treated very well, and equallybodhabill wrote:... I wonder if AB rocognised the domino effect as well ... your sleuthing and deduction work is impeccable catmoonPost by catmoon » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:53 pm
Holy cats this never occurred to me - what if Ajahn Brahm's actions were just the first domino?!
True, but are those Bhikkunis accepted as equals?Post by Bankei » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:06 pm
Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.
With Metta
Bill
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
Well, whatever the previous history, the current situation appears to this mind like a dam in the process of crumbling. It seems to me like there is too much water coming through the hole now, the dam is past saving.
But we shall see. We shall see.
But we shall see. We shall see.
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
Hi Manapa
Hi catmoon
With Metta to All
Bill
Totally agree re Sati Saraniya Hermitage ... I was really referring to reports that Bhikkhunis in Thailand are not accepted by the mainstream Sanghaby Manapa » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:07 pm
There is a thread on this wat somewhere, and from the information they are treated very well, and equally
Hi catmoon
Totally agree with your summation, imho some of the stuff being bandied around at the moment from the WPP wanting to take control of the western monastries show that they know theby catmoon » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:50 pm
Well, whatever the previous history, the current situation appears to this mind like a dam in the process of crumbling. It seems to me like there is too much water coming through the hole now, the dam is past saving.
as welldam in the process of crumbling
With Metta to All
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
I believe bhikkhuni ordination is an irreversible process, especially in Theravada monasteries in the West. It's not a question of "if", but "when" and "how" (well, that's my humble opinion!).catmoon wrote:Well, whatever the previous history, the current situation appears to this mind like a dam in the process of crumbling. It seems to me like there is too much water coming through the hole now, the dam is past saving.
But we shall see. We shall see.
However, it will take time...
First of all, the female postulant (anagarika) must spend at least 1 year in white-robe, observing 8 precepts (this stage is recommended, but not compulsory). Then, she must spend 2 more years as a female novice (samaneri) -- observing 10 precepts -- before receiving full ordination as a bhikkhuni. At the moment, I don't know if there are many anagarikas or samaneris in the Theravada tradition, especially in the West, are working toward this goal.
In addition, other practical aspects need careful consideration: support from lay community (in actions, not merely in words!), provision of adequate accomodation, and appropriate monastic trainings...
Suan.
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
Exactly so Suan. As one who is on a Dana Roster to support just one (sometimes two monks) with food and other requisites, I wonder how many of the vociferous debaters regularly materially support even one or two monks. Not just a swipe of the credit card once or twice a year, but by providng the time, physical effort, food and drinks to keep two monks healthy. This requires each to give at least half to one day for food Dana a month for reliable planning, purchasing, storage, cooking, transporting (35 miles from Brisbane) serving, and cleaning up - and often taking a day's leave to do this each month from work. Recently, we had four visiting monks and a lay meditator to provide for. Many of the dana providers struggled on week days to do this. Accommodation for the monks is in very basic kutis. One kuti being a modified shipping container. This is not to say that those wishing to be ordained of either gender should be prevented - but the question still remains .... how can they live by the Vinaya unless the lay support is much much more than just words on internet lists, and an occasional cash donation.suanck said: In addition, other practical aspects need careful consideration: support from lay community (in actions, not merely in words!), provision of adequate accomodation, and appropriate monastic trainings...
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
How do you mean? I believe they can disrobe just like a monk can?suanck wrote: I believe bhikkhuni ordination is an irreversible process, especially in Theravada monasteries in the West. It's not a question of "if", but "when" and "how" (well, that's my humble opinion!).
There are female postulants at Amaravati, obviously not training for Bhikkhuni ordination, rather for an equivelent to Samaneri (Siladhara ordination), In comparison I found out while there the training is 2 years as an Anagarika and then Siladhara.First of all, the female postulant (anagarika) must spend at least 1 year in white-robe, observing 8 precepts (this stage is recommended, but not compulsory). Then, she must spend 2 more years as a female novice (samaneri) -- observing 10 precepts -- before receiving full ordination as a bhikkhuni. At the moment, I don't know if there are many anagarikas or samaneris in the Theravada tradition, especially in the West, are working toward this goal.
Hopefully the local community will be able to support them fully so they are as self sufficient as possible, without needing to get distracted with drumming up support to often, and then can focus both on their practice and community cohesion.In addition, other practical aspects need careful consideration: support from lay community (in actions, not merely in words!), provision of adequate accomodation, and appropriate monastic trainings...
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
Sorry! What I meant was that the level of support and acceptance (of bhikkhuni ordination) will be increasing, not diminishing, in the West.Manapa wrote:How do you mean? I believe they can disrobe just like a monk can?suanck wrote: I believe bhikkhuni ordination is an irreversible process, especially in Theravada monasteries in the West. It's not a question of "if", but "when" and "how" (well, that's my humble opinion!).
Suan
Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
Sadhu sadhu sadhu! Actions speak louder than words.Chris wrote: As one who is on a Dana Roster to support just one (sometimes two monks) with food and other requisites, I wonder how many of the vociferous debaters regularly materially support even one or two monks. ...
Suan.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada
I think the level of support hasn't changed, I think those who think the Theravadin line can not be resurected (so to speak) will need more convincing because they will now be more concerned with it being done in an inappropriate manner (secret cloak and dagger manner) than they would of been before.suanck wrote:Sorry! What I meant was that the level of support and acceptance (of bhikkhuni ordination) will be increasing, not diminishing, in the West.Manapa wrote:How do you mean? I believe they can disrobe just like a monk can?suanck wrote: I believe bhikkhuni ordination is an irreversible process, especially in Theravada monasteries in the West. It's not a question of "if", but "when" and "how" (well, that's my humble opinion!).
Suan
Their discipline needs to be impecable. and possibly one way to gain more support is to enrole 2 vinaya experts from each nikkaya the current Bhikkhunis & secular scholars in the field to hammer out what would be acceptable procedure for ordination disciplinery transactions etc so no-one can critique it as being impropperly done, the group doesn't need to accept the line as legitimate (from the historical theravada lineage) but if they can see it as being done propperly the discipline and training is to a high standard etc they may later accept them, as the true inheritors of the lineage of Bhikkhunis.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill