Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

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dylanj
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by dylanj » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:49 am

Justin should read more thoroughly. There are multiple suttas where the Buddha tells lay people to be celibate. e.g. Dhammika Sutta, & the definition of sexual misconduct as "going to the wife of another" comes after he says "if you cannot be celibate".
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:59 am

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:43 am
Instead the 3rd precept as refraining from sexual misconduct was the advice of lord budda.
This sounds like Judaism, Islam & Protestantism, who believe celibacy is wrong.

Regards
[/quote]

May I here indicate that lord buddha would have identified the fact that a layman cannot practise celibacy by their nature. We can see that even a sotapanna is not totally clean of sensual desires . Their is a sutta of anathapindika situ, a sotapanna , at the time of lord buddha who was having a family life with three daughters who theselves were sotapanna but married.

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DooDoot
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 am

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:59 am
May I here indicate that lord buddha would have identified the fact that a layman cannot practise celibacy by their nature.
Most layman cannot practise celibacy but some can. I am a layman & happily practice celibacy for 58% of my life.
justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:59 am
We can see that even a sotapanna is not totally clean of sensual desires .
Having some small arising of sensual desire does not mean the sotapanna must have sex.
justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:59 am
Their is a sutta of anathapindika situ, a sotapanna , at the time of lord buddha who was having a family life with three daughters who theselves were sotapanna but married.
I don't believe these suttas are true because I cannot imagine having having sex without self-view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi) & with the insight that craving causes stress. I think this kinds of sutta are some evangelical propaganda. For example, it is difficult to believe MN 143 is true when anathapindika was supposed to be a sotapanna but in MN 143 he could not cope with sickness & dying & said he never heard a teaching of non-attachment to the sense spheres before. Or in dhammapada commentary, there is a story of a young sotapanna woman who marries a hunter because she liked his meat. I cannot believe a sotapanna would marry a hunter.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by SarathW » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:35 am

Does maintaining celibacy as a lay person produce pleasant kammic results?
No. When you are sixteen.
Yes. When you are sixty.
:tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:59 am
Their is a sutta of anathapindika situ, a sotapanna , at the time of lord buddha who was having a family life with three daughters who theselves were sotapanna but married.
I don't believe these suttas are true because I cannot imagine having having sex without self-view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi) & with the insight that craving causes stress. I think this kinds of sutta are some evangelical propaganda. For example, it is difficult to believe MN 143 is true when anathapindika was supposed to be a sotapanna but in MN 143 he could not cope with sickness & dying & said he never heard a teaching of non-attachment to the sense spheres before. Or in dhammapada commentary, there is a story of a young sotapanna woman who marries a hunter because she liked his meat. I cannot believe a sotapanna would marry a hunter.
[/quote]

Quite truly at times certain sutta create doubts in our mind. Then we must try to analyse it with reasons of damma and discard them or accept them.
As of celibacy it is my belief that sexual desires arising out of 6 sensualitues is the greatest obstacle and the 1st obstacle for a person who needs to meditate. This obstacle is " kamaccanda" resting on asavas.
I need not explain further that asavas have to be overcome with gradual training of the mind firstly by overcoming ignorance and then training of the mind to eradicate sensual desires while taking the eight fold noble path. Sabbasava sutta is a good sutta one can make use of without doubts.

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DooDoot
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:35 am

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am
As of celibacy it is my belief that sexual desires arising out of 6 sensualitues is the greatest obstacle and the 1st obstacle for a person who needs to meditate.
Have you made a selection here?: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31028 I was the only member that selected sexual misconduct, so far.
justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am
Sabbasava sutta is a good sutta one can make use of without doubts.
This sutta does not seem particularly helpful because it only refers to eradicating the asava of sensuality but does not provide any method or wisdom.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by auto » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:37 am

if you see attractive form, your mind goes out of the penis. Result is real baby if you let your liquids into fertile grounds not into some other place.

If you cultivate feelings what are reversed like face reddening embarrassment, shame, repentance so that the light from the eyes will be turned inside and mind will get into body and will germinate then at some point you get a mind made body.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:21 pm

but being a lay calibate person and living with a girlfriend who is celibate
:rolleye: :lol:
Most layman cannot practise celibacy but some can. I am a layman & happily practice celibacy for 58% of my life.
"I'm celibate for 99,9% because every 24 hours I'm having sex just for a few trifling minutes" :lol:

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am
Sabbasava sutta is a good sutta one can make use of without doubts.
This sutta does not seem particularly helpful because it only refers to eradicating the asava of sensuality but does not provide any method or wisdom.
[/quote]
May I please indicate that the path to wisdom lies by eradicating defilements ( asava)

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DooDoot
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:24 am

justindesilva wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:53 am
May I please indicate that the path to wisdom lies by eradicating defilements ( asava)
In my opinion, the path to eradicating defilements ( asava) lies by wisdom.
I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’

MN 4

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:00 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:24 am
justindesilva wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:53 am
May I please indicate that the path to wisdom lies by eradicating defilements ( asava)
In my opinion, the path to eradicating defilements ( asava) lies by wisdom.
I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’

MN 4
The noble eightfold path leads one on steps of sila , samadhi , prajna ( wisdom). Eradication of defilements leads one to sila (virtues) that leads to samadhi which is the path to wisdom.
Here I stop .

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:31 am

Let the intelligent person live a celibate life,
as one would avoid a pit of glowing coals;
but being unable to live the celibate life,
go not beyond the bounds with others’ partners.

https://suttacentral.net/en/snp2.14

the answer is yes, implied.

If one, longing for sexual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person — longing, desiring — the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow.
— Kama Sutta, Sutta Nipata

The Buddha then goes on to say:

So one, always mindful, should avoid sexual desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore.


this is from the buddhist monastic code:
"'Worthless man, [sexual intercourse] is unseemly, out of line, unsuitable, and unworthy of a contemplative; improper and not to be done... Haven't I taught the Dhamma in many ways for the sake of dispassion and not for passion; for unfettering and not for fettering; for freedom from clinging and not for clinging? Yet here, while I have taught the Dhamma for dispassion, you set your heart on passion; while I have taught the Dhamma for unfettering, you set your heart on being fettered; while I have taught the Dhamma for freedom from clinging, you set your heart on clinging."

"'Worthless man, haven't I taught the Dhamma in many ways for the fading of passion, the sobering of intoxication, the subduing of thirst, the destruction of attachment, the severing of the round, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, unbinding? Haven't I in many ways advocated abandoning sensual pleasures, comprehending sensual perceptions, subduing sensual thirst, destroying sensual thoughts, calming sensual fevers? Worthless man, it would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a poisonous snake than into a woman's vagina. It would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a black viper than into a woman's vagina. It would be better that your penis be stuck into a pit of burning embers, blazing and glowing, than into a woman's vagina. Why is that? For that reason you would undergo death or death-like suffering, but you would not on that account, at the break-up of the body, after death, fall into deprivation, the bad destination, the abyss, hell..."

"'Worthless man, this neither inspires faith in the faithless nor increases the faithful. Rather, it inspires lack of faith in the faithless and wavering in some of the faithful.'"

of course, this admonishment is for a monk (the first offender who caused the buddha to lay down the rule of celibacy), but see how he completely condemns sex. lust is extremely difficult to root out, and if you succeed in doing so you can become a non-returner.. in order to do so, you have to enter and remain in celibacy. it takes a lot of faith and determination
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:35 am

The Blessed One said this:

“Householder, suppose a dog, overcome by hunger and weakness, was waiting by a butcher’s shop. Then a skilled butcher or his apprentice would toss the dog a well hacked, clean hacked skeleton of meatless bones smeared with blood. What do you think, householder? Would that dog get rid of his hunger and weakness by gnawing such a well hacked, clean hacked skeleton of meatless bones smeared with blood?”

“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because that was a skeleton of well hacked, clean hacked meatless bones smeared with blood. Eventually that dog would reap weariness and disappointment.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a skeleton by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, he avoids the equanimity that is diversified, based on diversity, and develops the equanimity that is unified, based on unity, where clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose a vulture, a heron, or a hawk seized a piece of meat and flew away, and then vultures, herons, and hawks pursued it and pecked and clawed it. What do you think, householder? If that vulture, heron, or hawk does not quickly let go of that piece of meat, wouldn’t it incur death or deadly suffering because of that?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a piece of meat by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’
Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose a man took a blazing grass torch and went against the wind. What do you think, householder? If that man does not quickly let go of that blazing grass torch, wouldn’t that blazing grass torch burn his hand or his arm or some other part of his body, so that he might incur death or deadly suffering because of that?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a grass torch by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose there were a charcoal pit deeper than a man’s height full of glowing coals without flame or smoke. Then a man came who wanted to live and not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain, and two strong men seized him by both arms and dragged him towards that charcoal pit. What do you think, householder? Would that man twist his body this way and that?”

“Yes, venerable sir. Why is that? Because that man knows that if he falls into that charcoal pit, he will incur death or deadly suffering because of that.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a charcoal pit by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose a man dreamt about lovely parks, lovely groves, lovely meadows, and lovely lakes, and on waking he saw nothing of it. So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a dream by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.

“Householder, suppose a man borrowed goods on loan
—a fancy carriage and fine-jewelled earrings—and preceded and surrounded by those borrowed goods he went to the marketplace. Then people, seeing him, would say: ‘Sirs, that is a rich man! That is how the rich enjoy their wealth!’ Then the owners, whenever they saw him, would take back their things. What do you think, householder? Would that be enough for that man to become dejected?”

“Yes, venerable sir. Why is that? Because the owners took back their things.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to borrowed goods by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose there were a dense grove not far from some village or town, within which there was a tree laden with fruit but none of its fruit had fallen to the ground. Then a man came needing fruit, seeking fruit, wandering in search of fruit, and he entered the grove and saw the tree laden with fruit. Thereupon he thought: ‘This tree is laden with fruit but none of its fruit has fallen to the ground. I know how to climb a tree, so let me climb this tree, eat as much fruit as I want, and fill my bag.’ And he did so. Then a second man came needing fruit, seeking fruit, wandering in search of fruit, and taking a sharp axe, he too entered the grove and saw that tree laden with fruit. Thereupon he thought: ‘This tree is laden with fruit but none of its fruit has fallen to the ground. I do not know how to climb a tree, so let me cut this tree down at its root, eat as much fruit as I want, and fill my bag.’ And he did so. What do you think, householder? If that first man who had climbed the tree doesn’t come down quickly, when the tree falls, wouldn’t he break his hand or his foot or some other part of his body,
so that he might incur death or deadly suffering because of that?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to fruits on a tree by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, he avoids the equanimity that is diversified, based on diversity, and develops the equanimity that is unified, based on unity, where clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn54
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:42 am

Contemplating foulness in the body,
Being mindful of in-and-out breathing,
Ever ardent and seeing clearly
The calming down of all formations:

Such a bhikkhu who sees rightly
Is thereby well released.
Accomplished in knowledge, at peace,
That sage has overcome all bonds.

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti85

the practice of contemplating foulness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patikulamanasikara
remember that this in fact is the body as it is; it's just that we are so deluded into finding other humans attractive we fail to notice.
here, the buddha compares the body to a smelly, oozing boil:

“Monks, it’s just as if there were a boil that had been building for many years with nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging.

“‘A boil,’ monks, is another word for this body composed of the four properties, born of mother & father, fed on rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing & massaging, breaking-up & disintegrating. It has nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging. For that reason, you should become disenchanted with this body.”

(https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.15)

there are definitely more discourses on this. i believe it was compared to madness? well, i hope you benefit from the teachings. and don't forget to practice loving kindness together with contemplation of foulness, or you could end up being so repulsed by your body that you behave unskillfully
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Nwad » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:35 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:21 pm
but being a lay calibate person and living with a girlfriend who is celibate
:rolleye: :lol:
:tongue:
All peoples think that is strange to not having sex vith your companion) I understand it, but no need sex to show your love to someone ;) :hug:
Actualy i love my girlfriend and thats why i cant have a sex with her, its so violent and dirty activity, there is no 'love' in... imho :)

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