why is authenticity under-valued

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Dhammarakkhito
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why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:59 am

let's talk about it
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:03 am

Greetings Dhammarakkhito,
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:59 am
let's talk about it
Authenticity in terms of Buddhist texts and their traceability back to authentic sources, or authenticity as a personal attribute?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am

caring about what the buddha said, what he didn't say, how we might know such things, whether we should base our buddhism off of early sayings and to what extent, etc
me personally i wouldnt have been buddhist if i hadn't delved into the ebts. if any worldling could come up with something profound as dhamma, why couldn't i? it's not worldly
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:29 am

Greetings Dhammarakkhito,

I guess that could only be meaningfully answered on a person-by-person basis, as what each individual values, and how much they value it, is really up to them.

For me, I'm interested in what the Buddha himself taught... not just what "some guy" reckons about Buddhism, or what some meditation instructor believes. To that end, the suttas are front and centre in that endeavour.

That said, different people see matters differently, and place emphasis on other perspectives, and that doesn't make their pursuit of the path any less sincere or authentic. After all, as the suttas say, the Noble Eightfold Path itself is fabricated, albeit the best of all fabricated things!

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DNS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:46 am

I like the EBTs too and naturally inclined toward further study of EBTs even before I met a great monk/kalyana-mitta who also focused on the EBTs.

However, the Suttas still need to be interpreted as not all are meant to be understood as 'fully drawn out' and some teachings are 'inferred' as noted in AN 2.25 thus, some of the controversies and debates we see here and elsewhere.

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:34 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:46 am
I like the EBTs too and naturally inclined toward further study of EBTs even before I met a great monk/kalyana-mitta who also focused on the EBTs.

However, the Suttas still need to be interpreted as not all are meant to be understood as 'fully drawn out' and some teachings are 'inferred' as noted in AN 2.25 thus, some of the controversies and debates we see here and elsewhere.
:goodpost:

There is also the ongoing research and debate about which texts, or which versions of them, are "authentic". That sets a limit to how far the quest for authenticity can usefully be pursued.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:52 am

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:30 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am
caring about what the buddha said...
Many people like to make this claim but generally they don't really know what the Buddha said. Our personal interpretations of translations or Pali are not necessarily what the Buddha said.

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:04 am

ok, what i said is a little bit different, but what you've said is valid. i care about what the buddha said and think we do have considerable evidence that what is in the ebts is real buddhavacana. it's apparent reading the texts usually there is a liberating quality. i wouldn't throw my hands up in the air and say 'well, the monks played telephone games for 500 years, who knows what was really said'. not possible to get it perfectly, but the essential teaching is there
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:19 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:04 am
not possible to get it perfectly, but the essential teaching is there
How can anyone possibly know that?

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:48 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:04 am
it's apparent reading the texts usually there is a liberating quality.
I agree this might be the criteria. However, at least for me, not all texts & nor all translations have a liberating quality.

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:30 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am
caring about what the buddha said...
Many people like to make this claim but generally they don't really know what the Buddha said. Our personal interpretations of translations or Pali are not necessarily what the Buddha said.
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said? And, why is it so important that one says something that the Buddha said versus your grandmother, for example? Does it really matter if we give authenticity any senior place at the table? What does it all have to do with our own experience in this moment?

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:48 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said?
So I can defeat you in an argument ;). Seriously, generally I refer to the "suttas" rather than the "Buddha". Importantly, I think what I quote can be meditatively verified as leading to liberation. :geek:

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DCM » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am

Okay, so if I asked, "what are the EBT's", would we get a general agreement or several different answers?

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said?
To see what happens when I do so.
And, why is it so important that one says something that the Buddha said versus your grandmother, for example?
Naming one's references isn't necessarily an appeal to authority. Sometimes it's just about crediting the source, as opposed to presenting someone else's words as one's own (plagiarizing).
Does it really matter if we give authenticity any senior place at the table? What does it all have to do with our own experience in this moment?
When one's experience in this moment is that one doesn't know the final solution, one strategy is to look up to others for whom one has some reason to consider that they might have the solution.

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:03 am

DCM wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am
Okay, so if I asked, "what are the EBT's", would we get a general agreement or several different answers?
If you ask at SuttaCentral you will get more or less one distinct answer with a clear definition. If you ask elsewhere, who knows what people will say? There is a text out there published by a Princeton University Press called "Greek Buddha" that argues that the Dàodéjīng is the only authentic account of the earliest teachings of the Buddha (because the Buddha was Lǎozǐ, the ascetic Gautama is ahistorical and a corruption of later texts), and that the Indic texts (read: Pāli, Prākrit, Gāndhārī, & Chinese materials) are all hopelessly corrupted.

Obviously the author who got his dissertation published by Princeton University Press has a different opinion than those working in the rest of EBT studies.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:48 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said?
So I can defeat you in an argument ;). Seriously, generally I refer to the "suttas" rather than the "Buddha". Importantly, I think what I quote can be meditatively verified as leading to liberation. :geek:
Logically speaking, if you are not liberated, how would you know something leads to it? Liberation doesn't seem to be anything in our power that we control. We can only wish for it. But wishing for something is an act of craving no matter how noble that craving is. Are we to draw the line at some cravings are acceptable so some becomings are acceptable? I don't see much difference in what we desire. At a certain level, dispassion for all of this starts to kick in because we see the impossibility of our desiring and what it entails. Are you with me?

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:14 am

binocular wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said?
When one's experience in this moment is that one doesn't know the final solution, one strategy is to look up to others for whom one has some reason to consider that they might have the solution.
Why can't you leave it at 'I don't know'? What is so unacceptable about this? Do you ever suspect that your question itself is responsible for your not knowing and wanting a solution?

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:19 am

DCM wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am
Okay, so if I asked, "what are the EBT's", would we get a general agreement or several different answers?
from facebook: 'We find that the closest reflection of the Saddhamma, or True Dhamma, available is preserved in the Early Buddhist Texts: the Pāli Nikāyas & Vinaya, the Chinese Āgamas & Vinaya, and parallel Suttas & Vinaya in Tibetan, Sanskrit, Gāndhārī and other languages.'
Authenticity: An authentic text is one whose provenance is what it says it is. In this case this means that texts that purport to be the words of the historical Buddha and his immediate disciples were in fact spoken by them.

Early Buddhist Texts: Texts spoken by the historical Buddha and his contemporary disciples. These are the bulk of the Suttas in the main four Pali Nikāyas and parallel Āgama literature in Chinese, Tibetan, Sanskrit, and other Indian dialects; the pātimokkhas and some Vinaya material from the khandhakas; a small portion of the Khuddaka Nikāya, consisting of significant parts of the Sutta Nipāta, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Dhammapada, and Thera- and Therī Gāthā. The “Suttas” in a narrow sense are those passages that are directly attributed to the Buddha himself (and to a lesser extent his direct disciples).

Non-EBTs: Abhidhamma, Mahāyāna Sūtras, Buddha biographies, historical chronicles, as well as the majority of the Khuddaka Nikāya and the Vinaya Piṭaka. The Jātakas are non EBT, but derive from stories that in some cases may even be earlier than the Buddha. Commentaries and other late texts may contain some genuine historical information alongside much later invention.

https://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/201 ... ticity.pdf
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:34 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:14 am
Why can't you leave it at 'I don't know'? What is so unacceptable about this?
Because some things are so important (to oneself) that "I don't know" is not a possible attitude to have toward them.
Of course, you could argue in favor for consequent relativism (and point out the problems of craving), which, theoretically, seems appealing enough, but is useless as a foundation for action (unless one is a trust-fund kid).
Do you ever suspect that your question itself is responsible for your not knowing and wanting a solution?
What question? A question like, "Who might have an answer for my troubles?"

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