Paranoid-schizoid position

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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binocular
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:05 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:38 am
While I don't know much about the subject matter, I find Gregory Bateson's & R.D. Laing's 'Double-Bind' theory as more plausible
And while we're at Bateson and double binds: The general solution for double bind situations is to look at the context (or the context of the context etc.) for so long that one arrives at a situation that isn't a double bind and where one can act in a beneficial way.

This means, for example, that when you're stuck in a double bind drama with your narcissistic mother, where nothing you do or could do seems good enough to her, look at what the context of that situation is. For example, the context is that it's 4 PM and at 4.30 PM you have to pick your kid from soccer practice, and it takes you 20 minutes to get there, so you better get going.

It helps to create such contexts in advance -- in terms of time and tasks, such as having a schedule and a to-do list, but also in terms of relationships where in a calm hour, you actually sit down and think about the troublesome but inavoidable relationships in your life, and define what those relationships mean to you and set boundaries, and think in advance about how you could act wholesomely despite the drama an the double binds.

This may seem cold ... I think it's best to reserve understanding others for a few important relationships. Understanding others takes a lot of work and time, and one has to be prudent with how one uses those.

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aflatun
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by aflatun » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:07 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 am

The best description that I've come across in Buddhist terms that describe stress and other disturbances is Punnaji's beginning description of the path. He calls this disturbance, emotional reactivity. It is described as citta, the unconscious reactions of the 'animal' parts of our brain, the amygdala, that involve unconscious fear and survival activities along with all the other disturbances we develop. The job of the beginning stages of practice is to make these emotional reactions conscious by using mano, the thinking and reasoning part of our brain, the neo-cortex. He calls this Selective Thinking. We change the orientation of our emotional state to one of Dhamma, this being Samma Ditthi, Right View. Mano is the part of the brain that can 'control' these unconscious reactions from influencing our overall state of mind. This is the same theory that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy uses but Punnaji insists the Buddha discovered this 2500 years ago! and is built into the 8 Fold Path. The neo-cortex is said to grow and begin to override the amygdala's responses leading to harmony and tranquility, 'entering the stream'. Then the deeper stages of practice can unfold once the emotional reactivity has been calmed.
I think there is a lot of truth to the idea that the Buddha kind of "created" CBT :thumbsup:. Probably also the worlds first and greatest phenomenologist, pragmatist, etc. But as we know none of these things are "the point," and so he went a lot further! I'm glad you're finding resonance with Ven. Punnaji's teachings, keep us posted.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:31 pm

aflatun wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:07 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 am

The best description that I've come across in Buddhist terms that describe stress and other disturbances is Punnaji's beginning description of the path. He calls this disturbance, emotional reactivity. It is described as citta, the unconscious reactions of the 'animal' parts of our brain, the amygdala, that involve unconscious fear and survival activities along with all the other disturbances we develop. The job of the beginning stages of practice is to make these emotional reactions conscious by using mano, the thinking and reasoning part of our brain, the neo-cortex. He calls this Selective Thinking. We change the orientation of our emotional state to one of Dhamma, this being Samma Ditthi, Right View. Mano is the part of the brain that can 'control' these unconscious reactions from influencing our overall state of mind. This is the same theory that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy uses but Punnaji insists the Buddha discovered this 2500 years ago! and is built into the 8 Fold Path. The neo-cortex is said to grow and begin to override the amygdala's responses leading to harmony and tranquility, 'entering the stream'. Then the deeper stages of practice can unfold once the emotional reactivity has been calmed.
I think there is a lot of truth to the idea that the Buddha kind of "created" CBT :thumbsup:. Probably also the worlds first and greatest phenomenologist, pragmatist, etc. But as we know none of these things are "the point," and so he went a lot further! I'm glad you're finding resonance with Ven. Punnaji's teachings, keep us posted.
I think in human terms, it is the point for the vast majority of folks who wish to be fully human and have a semblance of sanity. Only then, is there a possibility of going further and contemplating our own experience in the way the Buddha taught.

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:09 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:31 pm
I think in human terms, it is the point for the vast majority of folks who wish to be fully human and have a semblance of sanity. Only then, is there a possibility of going further and contemplating our own experience in the way the Buddha taught.

Do you believe that one first needs to be normal on worldly terms before one can go further and contemplate our own experience in the way the Buddha taught?

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:58 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:05 pm
This means, for example, that when you're stuck in a double bind drama with your narcissistic mother, where nothing you do or could do seems good enough to her, look at what the context of that situation is. For example, the context is that it's 4 PM and at 4.30 PM you have to pick your kid from soccer practice, and it takes you 20 minutes to get there, so you better get going.

It helps to create such contexts in advance -- in terms of time and tasks, such as having a schedule and a to-do list, but also in terms of relationships where in a calm hour, you actually sit down and think about the troublesome but inavoidable relationships in your life, and define what those relationships mean to you and set boundaries, and think in advance about how you could act wholesomely despite the drama an the double binds.

This may seem cold ... I think it's best to reserve understanding others for a few important relationships. Understanding others takes a lot of work and time, and one has to be prudent with how one uses those.
You sound like a professional here. :bow: :anjali:

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 pm

Greetings,
binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:40 pm
Trying to understand what goes on in another's head is usually just about projection and patronizing. And virtue-signalling, and white-knighting. And an attempt to find safety in an uncertain, unknown world.
I'm pleased you said "usually", otherwise you'd potentially be doing this to me. :) As it stands, this has no bearing on my situation... other than, somewhat ironically, describing some of the kinds of people I'm talking about. :)
binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:40 pm
I think understanding others is overrated. Despite a popular trend to emphasize empathy. Better to just focus on the task and hand and get work done. This has the beautiful side-effect of defusing a lot of relationship drama. And limit efforts to understand others to a few significant, close, mutual relationships.
I agree here. To be clear, the situation isn't causing me any dukkha. It would just be useful, and informative in "focusing on the task at hand", given that the execution of some of my tasks extend beyond the domain of my nearest and dearest.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by manas » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:28 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:40 pm

And limit efforts to understand others to a few significant, close, mutual relationships.
This makes sense to me. I need to understand my children so as to be able to better help them, to grow to maturity - so there's a benefit for me to be able to delve into their mental and emotional worlds, so to speak.

As for others - well, I'm having a hard enough time, just comprehending myself, to be honest. With the limited time I have left, I'm hoping I can just get that urgent task done, sometime before falling off the perch.

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:55 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:09 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:31 pm
I think in human terms, it is the point for the vast majority of folks who wish to be fully human and have a semblance of sanity. Only then, is there a possibility of going further and contemplating our own experience in the way the Buddha taught.

Do you believe that one first needs to be normal on worldly terms before one can go further and contemplate our own experience in the way the Buddha taught?
Yes. Otherwise their neuroses cannot allow them to relax and be present.

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by alan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:19 am

The President has major psychological problems, and is not fit to serve. Is this not obvious to everyone?
Because it is obvious to me. Has been for a long time. How can people not see this?
Trump is a child. A stupid, ridiculous one.

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:27 am

Greetings Alan,

Are you suggesting Trump operates from the Paranoid-schizoid position?

Or perhaps that his rabid detractors do?...

Or do you just love talking about Trump?!

:heart:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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aflatun
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by aflatun » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:31 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:31 pm

I think in human terms, it is the point for the vast majority of folks who wish to be fully human and have a semblance of sanity. Only then, is there a possibility of going further and contemplating our own experience in the way the Buddha taught.
I don't disagree with you, I just hesitate to reduce the dhamma to those things (I'm not saying you are). Also, I find appeals to the brain out of place, but if they help modern people connect that's fine with me. Its probably because I've removed, handled, autopsied and microscopically examined thousands. And having seen the insides of the sausage factory that is neurologic and medical science, I can guarantee you our ideas of what neocortex and amygdala do will change with time, especially if it facilitates someones professorial tenure or publication quota. I prefer to focus on more stable principles. Its just a style thing I guess! :)
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

Saengnapha
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:38 am

aflatun wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:31 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:31 pm

I think in human terms, it is the point for the vast majority of folks who wish to be fully human and have a semblance of sanity. Only then, is there a possibility of going further and contemplating our own experience in the way the Buddha taught.
I don't disagree with you, I just hesitate to reduce the dhamma to those things (I'm not saying you are). Also, I find appeals to the brain out of place, but if they help modern people connect that's fine with me. Its probably because I've removed, handled, autopsied and microscopically examined thousands. And having seen the insides of the sausage factory that is neurologic and medical science, I can guarantee you our ideas of what neocortex and amygdala do will change with time, especially if it facilitates someones professorial tenure or publication quota. I prefer to focus on more stable principles. Its just a style thing I guess! :)
No doubt that science is a work in progress, but we shouldn't disregard the brain and how it processes information. It's the tool that we have and it needs to be used in light of the Dhamma. No reduction going on here. Brain and body are part of the whole organism. Science is adding valuable information that we can corroborate through the teachings of men like the Buddha.

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by Alexander____ » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:49 am

I have been in analysis for nine months now with a therapist who has partly a Kleinian approach. While it was challenging to begin with I have found it very helpful and plan to continue.

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:31 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:55 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:09 pm
Do you believe that one first needs to be normal on worldly terms before one can go further and contemplate our own experience in the way the Buddha taught?
Yes. Otherwise their neuroses cannot allow them to relax and be present.
Becoming normal on worldly terms seems to take one only in the opposite direction of what the Buddha taught.

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:31 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:55 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:09 pm
Do you believe that one first needs to be normal on worldly terms before one can go further and contemplate our own experience in the way the Buddha taught?
Yes. Otherwise their neuroses cannot allow them to relax and be present.
Becoming normal on worldly terms seems to take one only in the opposite direction of what the Buddha taught.
Perhaps I misunderstood your use of the word normal. For me, normal is the ending of neuroses. Certainly, the Buddha would be in favor of that. But it seems that this kind of normal is just the beginning of the path. The worldly normal would not have anything to do with the path. So, I would agree with what you said. (I also don't like to use the word path as it is not a linear one as the word would suggest.)

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by befriend » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:12 pm

i am schizophrenic and through metta and vipassana sila and Dana I have pulled myself out of the muck of mental illness. I function better than most non mentally ill people. I have good friends can hold an interesting conversation and volunteer one day a week. I study the nikayas and meditate and have have experienced vipassana insights into Annica Dukkha and Anatta my eyes aren't dusty at all. Most schizophrenics are religious and highly intelligent. Bi polar type also have a component of hyper religiosity.
rest

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binocular
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:58 pm
You sound like a professional here.
Still have a long way to go ... :yingyang:

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:06 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 pm
It would just be useful, and informative in "focusing on the task at hand", given that the execution of some of my tasks extend beyond the domain of my nearest and dearest.
So you'd like to know what goes on in the mind of a virtue-signaller, for example?

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:40 pm

Greetings binocular,

I'm comfortable with my understanding of the key processes and motivations going on in that particular instance... but yes, there's other behaviour types that it would be helpful to have a comparable understanding of.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by befriend » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:49 pm

It doesn't matter, it's like the man who was shot with an arrow and asks who shot me with this arrow, just follow the path and get it out. Buddha said all beings except enlightened ones are insane to some degree modern psychology does not know where schizoid paranoid personality types comes from or how to cure it. The medicine is simply goodness.
rest

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