How common is stream entry?

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Kurplunk
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Kurplunk »

Dhammanando-

Does that mean it is possible to be a stream-winner without directly seeing nibbana? And furthermore, does that imply that one who has directly seen nibbana is necessarily sakadagami or higher?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammanando »

Kurplunk wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 am Does that mean it is possible to be a stream-winner without directly seeing nibbana?
No. The consciousness that arises at the stream-entry path moment has Nibbāna as its object.
Kurplunk wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 amAnd furthermore, does that imply that one who has directly seen nibbana is necessarily sakadagami or higher?
No. All grades of sekha disciple, from sotāpanna to anāgāmin, have seen Nibbāna.
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It turns out otherwise.
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Kurplunk
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Kurplunk »

Ok, maybe I misunderstand what is meant by "faith-follower". I have heard it described as someone who has experienced the insight knowledge of arising and passing. Therefore they understand cause and effect and impermanence.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

Kurplunk wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:26 am Ok, maybe I misunderstand what is meant by "faith-follower". I have heard it described as someone who has experienced the insight knowledge of arising and passing. Therefore they understand cause and effect and impermanence.


At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

at the other person, a stream enterer still has ill will and sexual desire. killing is precluded, but cruelty, like rape, torture, mutilation, etc. may not be precluded, but in other suttas i have seen non-killing and non harm mentioned together. the [sutta i can't find] says a stream enterer is heedless by not going to a secluded place (and meditating). the claim i made was too vague really to be proven wrong, i admit, but 'stainless virtues' is said to be more in my opinion than it is. if you value commentary, there is a once returner who starves herself; screenshot below.

"And what is the individual who is a Dhamma-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But with a [sufficient] measure of reflection through discernment he has come to an agreement with the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a Dhamma-follower.[9] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual who is a conviction-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But he has a [sufficient] measure of conviction in & love for the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.[10]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

edit: "other person," you are actually the same person. well, then there is viññāṇa sutta for you twice in this very thread :jumping:
my interpretation of stream entry comes directly from the suttas
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zerotime
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by zerotime »

Saengnapha wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:37 pm I tend to agree with your assessment, but not the part about being heedless. Being mindful and diligent should be a condition for sotapanna. Perfect virtues come about on their own through right conduct, etc., and the intention of mindfulness and diligence. When you act in accordance with principle, you are automatically in accordance with the way.
no perfect virtues are attained by sotappana. Only three fetters are eradicated, not ten.

That's another meaning for Mara. Something whispering to your ear: "Ey... you cannot.... you are not so intelligent... you don't deserve it, you are not perfect,.. your are impure".

We can remember the Angulimala history; he was a serial killer and he entered in the stream. Are you a serial killer?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

friend, you cannot enter the stream without permanently keeping the five precepts. see my comment earlier in the thread excerpting the sotāpanna handbook :redherring:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Kurplunk »

Oh I see now, I was confusing "faith-follower" with "dhamma-follower".

Dhammarakkhito-

Outside of keeping the precepts it is still possible to have unwholesome and therefore non-virtuous mental states.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Saengnapha »

zerotime wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:39 am
Saengnapha wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:37 pm I tend to agree with your assessment, but not the part about being heedless. Being mindful and diligent should be a condition for sotapanna. Perfect virtues come about on their own through right conduct, etc., and the intention of mindfulness and diligence. When you act in accordance with principle, you are automatically in accordance with the way.
no perfect virtues are attained by sotappana. Only three fetters are eradicated, not ten.

That's another meaning for Mara. Something whispering to your ear: "Ey... you cannot.... you are not so intelligent... you don't deserve it, you are not perfect,.. your are impure".

We can remember the Angulimala history; he was a serial killer and he entered in the stream. Are you a serial killer?
I didn't mean to imply that the Sotapanna state perfects the virtues. I'm familiar with the flow charts that describe the various stages and perfections.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by aflatun »

Thank you for this Bhante.
Dhammanando wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:53 am
In the commentaries the saddhānusāri and dhammānusāri are both stated to have arrived at the path of stream-entry. Of course those who base their conclusions on the Suttas alone might arrive at some other view. But since you make recourse in your post to the commentarial conception of...
I guess the distinction then is about how they got to the path of stream entry, their respective temperaments, etc?
Dhammanando wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:57 am
No. The consciousness that arises at the stream-entry path moment has Nibbāna as its object.

No. All grades of sekha disciple, from sotāpanna to anāgāmin, have seen Nibbāna.
I think there was a thread a few months ago where we discussed whether or not stream entry is defined by the experience of Nibbāna, not matter how fleeting. I guess the classical tradition is clear on this.

Please correct me if I wrong: I believe this consciousness is classified as lokuttara citta, and that it occurs in lokuttara jhana, with all five jhana factors (assuming the first jhana) present, regardless of whether we are considering the samatha yanika or the vipassana yanika... is that right?

From reading Venerable Mahasi I've gotten the impression that he believes at the path moment all six sensory spheres cease. (Forgive me as I can't cite an example at the moment but I can dig something up later). I mean no disrespect to the Venerable, but in light of the above, is this a "novel" reading of the classical tradition?

(If this is out of place here I'm happy to start a thread in the classical subforum)
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by zerotime »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:36 am friend, you cannot enter the stream without permanently keeping the five precepts. see my comment earlier in the thread excerpting the sotāpanna handbook :redherring:
What's the deep sense of "keeping the precepts"?. Should be referred to the the last minute, the last day, the last month, the last year....?

The sutta you quote says “He may, if he so desire, himself proclaim thus of himself". There is a difference in that open auto-affirmation which I believe it has different implications. See the many cases inside the Suttas in where many people have entered in the stream just by hearing a teaching from the Buddha for the first time. Should we believe all that people were perfect keepers of precepts when in fact many of them were listening the Dhamma for the first time?

In those lines about the four limbs we read: "What is the fivefold guilty dread that is allayed in him?"[...] "he begets no guilty dread". .
When there is freedom of these guilty-dreads there is the needed freedom to enter in the stream. This belongs to the present-moment and for that reason Angulimala and others were able to enter in the stream. The presence of obstacles cannot be measured in biographical magnitudes of time/permanence in a delusional belief of "my person". The real magnitude only exists in its active presence at the present moment. The utility of keeping the precepts is to keep freedom of obstacles of guilt because there are moral layers in our mind which are of impossible control to us. However, at the same time one should remember that our past is not here. What happens if we accept the belief "I'm impure"... "nibbana is only for saints"... etc? Is this not the build of our own obstacles?.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammanando »

aflatun wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm I guess the distinction then is about how they got to the path of stream entry, their respective temperaments, etc?
Yes. It's a question of whether the wisdom faculty or the faith faculty is predominant.
aflatun wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pmI think there was a thread a few months ago where we discussed whether or not stream entry is defined by the experience of Nibbāna, not matter how fleeting. I guess the classical tradition is clear on this.
Yes. In the initial attainment of each of the noble paths and fruits the experience of Nibbāna will always be fleeting, though some will subsequently be able to experience it for a lengthy duration via the attainment of phalasamāpatti.
aflatun wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pmPlease correct me if I wrong: I believe this consciousness is classified as lokuttara citta, and that it occurs in lokuttara jhana, with all five jhana factors (assuming the first jhana) present, regardless of whether we are considering the samatha yanika or the vipassana yanika... is that right?
Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas.
aflatun wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pmFrom reading Venerable Mahasi I've gotten the impression that he believes at the path moment all six sensory spheres cease.
Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.
aflatun wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm(Forgive me as I can't cite an example at the moment but I can dig something up later). I mean no disrespect to the Venerable, but in light of the above, is this a "novel" reading of the classical tradition?
No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
aflatun wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm(If this is out of place here I'm happy to start a thread in the classical subforum)
I don't think it's out of place. Being in the General Theravada forum just means that posters are at liberty to dissent from and to challenge the commentarial understanding, whereas in the Classical Forum one is required to assume for discussion purposes that the Abhidhamma and Commentaries get things right.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by aflatun »

Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!
Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 am
Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.

Regarding lokuttara jhana, phalasamāpatti, etc, can I find relevant discussion in the Nanamoli's English translation of Visuddhimagga?

EDIT: One other question that came to mind...is lakkhanūpanijjhāna also said to be mind sense only?
Last edited by aflatun on Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by aflatun »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:53 am
In the commentaries the saddhānusāri and dhammānusāri are both stated to have arrived at the path of stream-entry. Of course those who base their conclusions on the Suttas alone might arrive at some other view. But since you make recourse in your post to the commentarial conception of...
Out of curiosity, I looked in the largest book on my reading list..the (obviously non Theravadin) Abhidharmakosabasyam has this to say about the saddhānusāri and dhammānusāri:
Vasubandhu wrote:We have explained how the Path of Seeing and the Path of Meditation arise. We should now define the persons (pudgala) in whom the Noble Path arises. In the course of the fifteen moments which are the nature of the Path of Seeing,

29a-b. In these moments, the ascetics of weak and sharp faculties are respectively Sraddhanusarin and Dharmanusarin.

Placed in these moments, the ascetic with weak faculties is called a Sraddhanusarin; the ascetic with sharp faculties is called a Dharmanusarin. Here the word "faculties" (indriyas) signifies the faculties of faith, absorption, etc.

...

These two ascetics,

29c-d. If they have not abandoned the defilements to be abandoned through Meditation, they are candidates for the first result.

"The first result", that is, the first of the results, the state of Srotaapanna which is in fact the first resultant state in the order of acquisition.

...

31a-b. In the sixteenth moment, the ascetic becomes an abider in the state for which he was a candidate.

In the sixteenth moment, these two ascetics no longer bear the name of Sraddhanusarin or Dharmanusarin; they no longer bear the name of candidates. They are "abiders in a result": candidates for the state of Srotaapanna, Sakrdagamin, or Anagamin, now become Srotaapannas, Sakrdagamins, or Anagamins.

...

31c-d. At this moment, the ascetics with weak and sharp faculties become respectively Sraddhadhimukta or Drstiprapta.
This is all based on the Path of Seeing with its 16 moments, none of which I have any command of so I'm not sure I follow him. I'm not sure if "Noble Path" includes that first 15 moments or not...I dunno I'm going to have to do a lot of back reading on this. Sorry to muddy the waters, I thought I'd share.

:anjali:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Saengnapha
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Saengnapha »

aflatun wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:58 am Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!
Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 am
Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.
Blackout seems to be describing the samadhi of nothingness, which is a temporary state of mind and let go of by the Buddha in his own awakening.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

@zerotime, your post had a lot of words friend, not all sure what you're saying. but take for example sarakāni who was a heavy drinker but attained stream entry. the buddha said of him that he completed the training before he died.
based on everything i know and have shared i understand it to be impossible not to keep the precepts after entering the stream, but certainly before
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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