Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Mkoll
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by Mkoll » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:35 am

Roz wrote:
Mkoll wrote:There are tons of Fukushima conspiracy theories all over the internet that have been ongoing since the disaster. These things have a tendency to percolate into people's minds if they become unwary and don't check their sources. And of course this happens all the time.
Conspiracy theories? :roll:
In June 2012 S. David Freeman, the former head of the Southern California Public Power Authority and "a longtime anti-nuclear voice", described San Onofre and Diablo Canyon as "disasters waiting to happen: aging, unreliable reactors sitting near earthquake fault zones on the fragile Pacific Coast, with millions of Californians living nearby"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Onofr ... ng_Station
Uhm, OK? Your point in quoting a post I made more than 3 years ago...?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Kim OHara
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:14 am

Nuclear plants in Hurricane Irma's path are shutting down

Two Florida nuclear power plants in the path of Hurricane Irma are shutting down to brace for the Category 5 storm's devastating wind and rain.

Florida Power & Light announced on Thursday it will shut down the Turkey Point and St. Lucie nuclear plants ahead of Irma's expected arrival this weekend. The two facilities are Florida's only operating nuclear power plants. Both are on Florida's Atlantic Coast, which is bracing to get hit very hard by Irma's ferocious winds.

"This is an extremely dangerous storm," Rob Gould, chief communications officer at Florida Power & Light, told reporters. ...
http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/07/investi ... index.html

:thinking:
Kim

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SDC
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by SDC » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:23 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Nuclear plants in Hurricane Irma's path are shutting down

Two Florida nuclear power plants in the path of Hurricane Irma are shutting down to brace for the Category 5 storm's devastating wind and rain.

Florida Power & Light announced on Thursday it will shut down the Turkey Point and St. Lucie nuclear plants ahead of Irma's expected arrival this weekend. The two facilities are Florida's only operating nuclear power plants. Both are on Florida's Atlantic Coast, which is bracing to get hit very hard by Irma's ferocious winds.

"This is an extremely dangerous storm," Rob Gould, chief communications officer at Florida Power & Light, told reporters. ...
http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/07/investi ... index.html

:thinking:
Kim
The storm is now likely to track up the Gulf coast which will spell out to anywhere from 5 to 15 less feet of a storm surge along the Atlantic coast than was predicted by the American weather models last week. A cat 3 now, but probably back up to 4 by the time the eye is over Naples and she begins to weaken (doubtful it will ever be a cat 5 again). Hopefully those plants will be fine as a result.

Not trying to sound like a weather nerd or anything, just that my sister (and much of my extended family) lives in Tampa and are preparing for a direct hit, so I have been following the storm closely.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:19 pm

SDC wrote:...Not trying to sound like a weather nerd or anything, just that my sister (and much of my extended family) lives in Tampa and are preparing for a direct hit, so I have been following the storm closely.
I've lived in a cyclone-prone city for the last twenty-plus years, long enough to know how serious they are can be and how unpredictable they always are. "Following the storm closely" becomes almost compulsive when you know what they are like. I hope your family are okay.

:namaste:
Kim

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SDC
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by SDC » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:50 am

Kim OHara wrote:
SDC wrote:...Not trying to sound like a weather nerd or anything, just that my sister (and much of my extended family) lives in Tampa and are preparing for a direct hit, so I have been following the storm closely.
I've lived in a cyclone-prone city for the last twenty-plus years, long enough to know how serious they are can be and how unpredictable they always are. "Following the storm closely" becomes almost compulsive when you know what they are like. I hope your family are okay.

:namaste:
Kim
Thanks, Kim. They all lost power, but the surge in Tampa was not nearly as bad.

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Power Engineer Basics -- wanted URLs to basic explanations

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:22 pm

No sense in talking about nuclear power without a clear primer on why "base load" is so important to a grid.
I've read explanations by people who understand power engineering but they often assume that the rest of us know how these systems are engineered. There are holes in my practical knowledge and I've purchased components and put together my own off-grid systems. But small scale off-grid systems on the one hand and stable power grids with large grid-tied solar and wind inputs seem to be another. Why?

Power Engineering Basics -- URLs to explain some key questions

Please, I need URL (s) to public sites which explain electrical power generation basics.
-- I'm looking to explain why current solar and wind farms are said to not be able to regulate output to the grid.
-- Also why they don't help stabilize electrical phase on the grid.
  • How conventional spinning generators regulate voltage and sync electrical phase for 50 or 60 hz.
    (e.g. for volt regulation does it use regulated electromagnetic coils - like alternators in automobiles?)
  • Do conventional spinning generators use permanent magnets?
  • How other electrical stabilization services (volts and phase stabilization) works
  • My solar power system uses a 'charge controller' to regulate power to battery voltages with electronics ( 'buck' circuits) and resisters with heat sinks. Grid tied solar uses electronics to match voltage and sync to grid phase.
    What do commercial sized solar farms use?
  • I'm told that solar farms do not regulate their output -- that is, they do not regulate output to meet demand (load). Why not? (Is it they can't due to technology or don't due to grid-tie agreements?)
  • I'm told that wind farms do not regulate their output -- again why?
  • How do wind turbines in wind farms sync electrical phase to the grid?
  • Do the generators in the towers of wind turbines use permanent magnets only?

chownah
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:32 am


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Kim OHara
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:32 am

See also -
http://reneweconomy.com.au
https://cleantechnica.com

The technology is changing very quickly. This story https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewa ... -response/ looks at the biggest grid-level changes in Australia in the last month or two.

:coffee:
Kim

chownah
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:19 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:32 am
See also -
http://reneweconomy.com.au
https://cleantechnica.com

The technology is changing very quickly. This story https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewa ... -response/ looks at the biggest grid-level changes in Australia in the last month or two.

:coffee:
Kim
Storage is the answer. The tesla installation was the world wide wake up call to show this. That installation not only is doing what it was designed to do but is also stabilizing the grid in ways not possible with any previous technology.....almost unimaginable response rate to a power drop. The nay sayers will claim that since it couldn't hold the fort continuously on its own shows its short comings but in fact it wasn't designed to do anything in this scerario and it will only take more wind and solar sources distributed across the world and more storage facilities distributed across the world and the existing stability problems will be solved across the world and not only solved but brought to a quality level previously held as unimaginable.
The nay sayers are really quite unimaginative. They only think about what has been accomplished to date and seem to have no idea that storage has only been an issue for a few years since it has only been in the last few years that there has been enough wind/solar produced to create storage issues. Large scale storage is in its infancy. Ultimately even if batteries should fall short (not reason to think that they will) there is always using the energy to split water and to store the hydrogen and store it until it is needed to feed fuel cells to put the energy into the system....VOILA.....unlimited storage.... I really don't see how the nay sayers have overlooked this obvious solution....
chownah

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Kim OHara
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:19 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:19 am
... I really don't see how the nay sayers have overlooked this obvious solution....
chownah
The obvious answer is that they don't want to see any non-fossil solutions. :toilet:

But I agree - storage makes the difference. Pumped hydro e.g. http://www.genexpower.com.au/the-kidsto ... 250mw.html is also a great option if the landscape permits, and "pumped rock" :tongue: i.e. driving a train loaded with rocks uphill and getting the power back by letting it roll down, is another.

:twothumbsup:

Kim

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:01 am

The Tesla battery in SA is a lot of hype, it can only power 30,000 homes for one hour then the battery is flat and has to be recharged. Mostly is just a money making scheme for the owners, they charge it up with cheap renewable energy when the price is low, then sell the power back to the market during peak demand when the price is high, that is the main function of the battery, to make money for its owners(not the SA government, they don't own it), sure the government has the option to step in and use the power stored in an emergency, but like I said 30,000 homes for one hour is not really that big a deal, in a real crisis it wouldn't have anywhere near enough power stored in the batteries, like in the crisis that caused the massive blackouts in SA last year.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

chownah
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:49 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:01 am
The Tesla battery in SA is a lot of hype, it can only power 30,000 homes for one hour then the battery is flat and has to be recharged. Mostly is just a money making scheme for the owners, they charge it up with cheap renewable energy when the price is low, then sell the power back to the market during peak demand when the price is high, that is the main function of the battery, to make money for its owners(not the SA government, they don't own it), sure the government has the option to step in and use the power stored in an emergency, but like I said 30,000 homes for one hour is not really that big a deal, in a real crisis it wouldn't have anywhere near enough power stored in the batteries, like in the crisis that caused the massive blackouts in SA last year.
I think you will find that a french company called Noeon and Tesla formed a consortium and signed a contract with the gov't of SA.....I don't know exactly how the contract reads but it seems likely that the gov't of SA owns the facility and it is to be built and managed by the consortium for the gov't of SA.

I think that the idea isn't that the battery will be used to power 30,000 homes. I think they claim this just to give an idea of how massive it is. The idea for how it will be used (I think) is that a blackout or brownout occurs when the demand gets above what can be supplied and when this happens the grid sort of shuts down and it is a long process to get it started again.....the battery will be used when the demand is rising to where it almost exceeds supply and then the battery will kick in to keep the supply in the safe zone until either an auxilliary generator can be started or some industrial client who draws alot of juice can reduce its demand....or both. The idea is that the batteries will just boost the grid supply enough to keep it out of trouble while other measures kick in.

Of course, in the future, if all cars have batteries and if all houses have solar and batteries the entire grid pretty much could be stabilized or even locally run entirely in some areas.....that scenario is not here yet but it is certainly reasonable if not inevitable......and again if surplus energy is used to make hydrogen from water it could provide that additional grid supply when needed..........this is all very do-able.....
chownah

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Kim OHara
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:29 pm

:goodpost:
That's the idea, chownah, and so far it is working brilliantly - see http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-t ... story.html

:coffee:
Kim

P.S. And there's this to consider, too:
Coal and gas a reliability liability in the heat: report

3600 MW, or 14% of coal and gas generation failed during the February 2017 heatwave. Report calls for the National Energy Guarantee (NEG) to require “heat safe” back-up for coal and gas plants.

New analysis released today by The Australia Institute’s Climate & Energy Program shows that coal and gas failed to provide energy security during the February 2017 heatwave. Additionally, it found that solar prevented far worse disruption and load-shedding.

The report notes that Australia is entering an era of dramatically increased heatwaves and our coal and gas power stations are not designed for these conditions.

The analysis found that during the February 2017 heatwave across south-eastern Australia:

• In South Australia, 17% of gas powered generation (438 MW) was unavailable during the peak demand period that led to the 8th February blackouts.
• In New South Wales, 20% of coal and gas generation (2438 MW) failed to deliver during the critical peak period of interval, leading to load shedding at Tomaga aluminium smelter. ...
:reading: http://www.tai.org.au/content/coal-and- ... t-report-0

:namaste:

P.P.S. And in the UK, renewables have grown from less than 5% of electricity generation to nearly 50% in a decade.
https://theconversation.com/winds-of-ch ... coal-89598

:twothumbsup:

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:49 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:19 am

... The nay sayers will claim that ...

...The nay sayers are really quite unimaginative. They only think about what has been accomplished to date and seem to have no idea that ..

...VOILA.....unlimited storage.... I really don't see how the nay sayers have overlooked this obvious solution....
What is the opposite of a nay sayer? A naive supporter? Certainly some supporters are naive, misinformed, even driven by motivated (biased) reasoning in service of their own addenda. But all supporters shouldn't be labeled as naive. The way to avoid being a naive supporter is to have the critical mindset of a "nay sayer".

By my reading of how nay sayer is used in the passages quoted above the world seems to fall into two categories: nay sayers or naive supporters.

These nay-sayers reminds me of the US presidential election last year when Hillary Clinton used the line "basket of deplorables". Her campaign people should have warned her to be very careful, if she was to use that line at all, to explicitly, clearly and unambiguously spell out what kind of people she was talking about. More important, what people she was not talking about. Stuff like this helped elect Donald Trump -- I believe a number of better informed political types think that too.
Last edited by Leeuwenhoek2 on Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Discussion of Nuclear Power and Safety

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:38 pm

30,000 homes for one hour is not massive, a million homes for one hour, that would be massive.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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