Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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L.N.
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:51 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:45 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 am
but your position is on its face over-the-top silly.

Im fine with you thinking that, just trying to plant a seed. I realize that my position is not going to win me any popularity contests :)
You and I have something in common then.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by m0rl0ck » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:53 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:51 am
m0rl0ck wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:45 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 am
but your position is on its face over-the-top silly.

Im fine with you thinking that, just trying to plant a seed. I realize that my position is not going to win me any popularity contests :)
You and I have something in common then.
Cool :jumping:
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:31 pm

"I planted that seed!"

-every Christian after an evolution vs creationism debate, after failing to win the debate, but truly believing they planted the seeds of truth within their opponent.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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L.N.
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:42 pm
Just as it is throughout the forum "play the ball, not the man".
This is one of the more insightful comments made in this Topic, as it goes to the heart of the issue. When one comments about the person, it is "playing the man." In so doing, there is a greater potential for conflict and misunderstanding. That is a good summary of the point in the other Topic about Right Speech: Getting Personal (link).

Many, many times, we witness Members playing the person, not the ball. Comments such as some of those in the poll in the other Topic illustrate playing the person, not the ball. Just as it is throughout the forum, a more effective way of communicating in most instances is to address the Topic (the ball) rather than shoot down the messenger.

It is about one's personal approach to Right Speech. This is not about judging other's reactions when they are subject to personalized comments. That is a different Topic (which I may start, hopefully with less resulting drama).

Similarly, comments which broadly disparage other traditions can very easily be taken personally.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:14 am

Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:53 am
When one comments about the person, it is "playing the man."

Many, many times, we witness Members playing the person, not the ball. Comments such as some of those in the poll in the other Topic illustrate playing the person, not the ball.
True, but do you not see that by virtue of how you set up this (and in particular your other recent topic) you actually designated "the man" as "the ball"... or at least greatly blurred what would otherwise normally be a clear distinction between the two?

Might be worth considering for future topics you create...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:14 am
True, but do you not see that by virtue of how you set up this (and in particular your other recent topic) you actually designated "the man" as "the ball"... or at least greatly blurred what would otherwise normally be a clear distinction between the two?

Might be worth considering for future topics you create...

Metta,
Paul. :)
Will consider, thank you.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:49 am

all your posts i've seen are complaining about the forum. there are aspects of it i have disliked too, but i'm here because i guess i benefit from it in some way
take it or leave it (start by contributing)
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:01 am

I think LN IS making a valuable contribution to this forum.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:22 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:01 am
I think LN IS making a valuable contribution to this forum.
I agree.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:25 am

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:22 am
lyndon taylor wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:01 am
I think LN IS making a valuable contribution to this forum.
I agree.
I also agree, though I notice that of late we spend more time discussing social and political issues, rather than Dhamma.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:51 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:19 pm
If they believe that God (who instated their religious doctrine) is just, then, by implication, they think it is just and look forward to everything God did, does, or will do, including burning "infidels" in hell forever. If they hope that God's justice be done, and God's justice includes burning "infidels" in hell forever, then they hope that those "infidels" will burn in hell forever.
Come on binocular, this makes no sense... It is like saying that Buddists hope that people with bad karma go to hell because that is what the Buddha said must happen to them.
Besides, believing that God is just in no way implies that one would look forward to it. There is no sensible justification for 'hoping that God's justice be done', if you know for sure it will. You don't hope for something you already know is bound to happen. After all, don't Buddists believe a number of people will burn in hell too? why are you cool with that but not when it comes to Islam?

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:03 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:27 pm
Substantiate your defense of Muhammad, or accept the criticism of Muhammad as statement of fact, and not disparagement.
I decline to do either. The select and distorted facts you and others choose to identify here in this Dhamma forum are inappropriate, in my opinion. There are other more appropriate avenues for this.
I think this is the best approach, since for the actual followers of Islam, such 'facts' ascribed to the islamic creed may not even have a fraction of the relevance they are conveniently attributed by its detractors. It is pointless to accuse any community of embracing their historical heritage when their perception of said heritage doen't match your own. And it doen't matter which one is more accurate: the only one that matters is theirs, not yours. Because it is the one dictating their behavior. Yours does not.

L.N. your English is so beautiful, would you mind making your postings a bit longer in the future? I just love reading whatever you write, because you write it so well. A bit like the Qur'an for Muslims.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:13 am

lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:03 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:27 pm
Substantiate your defense of Muhammad, or accept the criticism of Muhammad as statement of fact, and not disparagement.
I decline to do either. The select and distorted facts you and others choose to identify here in this Dhamma forum are inappropriate, in my opinion. There are other more appropriate avenues for this.
I think this is the best approach, since for the actual followers of Islam, such 'facts' ascribed to the islamic creed may not even have a fraction of the relevance they are conveniently attributed by its detractors. It is pointless to accuse any community of embracing their historical heritage when their perception of said heritage doen't match your own. And it doen't matter which one is more accurate: the only one that matters is theirs, not yours. Because it is the one dictating their behavior. Yours does not.
Hello.

Criticizing islam and Muhammad is not the same as criticizing muslims. Many muslims are cultural muslims, with a sufi bent. It is the fundamentalists who read the canonical texts and adhere to them with zeal. To the extent that they do what is described in those texts, we need to criticize the texts themselves. But in order to criticize the texts we need to start by aknowledging what is written in them.

In the topic in question I have quoted the facts directly from the canonical islamic scriptures (which can be easily found online from islamic and academic sources). Some members complained about the offensiveness of the facts, but they did not provide refutations based on canonical islamic scriptures. Some members claimed these facts have long been disproven, without providing the required proof. Thus, these remain facts.

Facts matter. In the case of a medical doctor treating a patient, the doctor needs to get to the right diagnosis in order to apply the propper cure. Similarly, social problems need to be correctly diagnosed before they can be solved for the benefit of everyone, without violating the human rights of the individuals.

Denying these facts is like postponing a visit to the doctor when, in your heart, you know you have to go. If someone points to you that you need to go to the doctor, you can be offended and protest but, deep down, you still know that you have to go. When people hear these unpleasant facts they are confornted with their denial. But in fact, it's the denial that is allowing the problem to get worse and, if the denial continues, it will result in the drastic measures that the denialists desperately want to prevent. And their anxiety does not allow them to see that they're not the only ones who want to prevent drastic measures.

The middle way is to solve the problem humanely, within the democratic framework, while we still can. Ignoring the facts is not an option, at least not a decent one. Please check the canonical scriptures.

Añjali.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am

lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
It is pointless to accuse any community of embracing their historical heritage when their perception of said heritage doen't match your own. And it doen't matter which one is more accurate: the only one that matters is theirs, not yours.
Really?

So actual white racists in the American South - their perception of their heritage is the only one that matters?

Actual German neo-Nazis - their perception of their heritage is the only one that matters?

It's pretty clear that all parties involved have a stake in the perception of heritage.

This idea that the only opinion/perception/idea which matters is that which some faction has of itself is nonsense - there is nothing illogical per se about criticising the perceptions of others.
lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
Because it is the one dictating their behavior. Yours does not.
And this is not the case either - Islamic terrorists are explicitly acting against what they see as Western corruption of and aggression against their moral and cultural virtues. So the actions of others do affect the perceptions which underlie action.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:42 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:13 am
To the extent that they do what is described in those texts, we need to criticize the texts themselves. But in order to criticize the texts we need to start by aknowledging what is written in them.
I disagree. You may criticize their understanding of the texts, but not 'what is written in the texts', for the simple reason that your interpretation of this text (or rather, its English translation I would assume) might way differ from theirs. And their actions based on textual references may stem from a different interpretation which has nothing to do with yours. This is why it is pointless to criticize 'the texts' because no interpretation, no reading of a text in this world is purely objective and universal.
In the topic in question I have quoted the facts directly from the canonical islamic scriptures (which can be easily found online from islamic and academic sources). Some members complained about the offensiveness of the facts, but they did not provide refutations based on canonical islamic scriptures. Some members claimed these facts have long been disproven, without providing the required proof. Thus, these remain facts.
Really? It seems to me that someone has rebutted most of your arguments, and that you were in the process of developping your own counter-arguments, which I look forward to.
Facts matter. In the case of a medical doctor treating a patient, the doctor needs to get to the right diagnosis in order to apply the propper cure.
True, but what you're suggesting is akin to a doctor prescribing a drug based on the description of that drug without looking at the symptoms of the disease.

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