Refuge in the Sangha

[SamBodhi]

Lately, I have been thinking about something when I get upset with another person. If there is some sort of animosity building or a definite case of grasping at anger or discursive thinking, I think about that person and then I say to myself, "Ajahn Chah was a real person. Flesh and blood real." I am not sure why I chose Ajahn Chah for this, but it may have been some contemplation on the title of this book, "No Ajahn Chah." I visited a Chan meditation group and I was surprised to see it sitting in the case next to all the other books they were offering.

Every time I do this, I immediately feel differently about whomever it is that I was previously struggling with. I am sure there is a comparison going on when I do this. It is not like I put the two different people side by side in my head. However, I think that the phrase incites a level of comparison.

The point of this story is that I was wondering if this is considered "refuge in the Sangha"? It certainly feels like it to me. I remember reading a Dhamma talk by Thanissaro Bhikkhu where he was speaking about how we have this "noble friend" in the Buddha. So, maybe this same thing is applied when I am saying this to myself... What I mean by that is that when I am experiencing trouble with somebody else, I feel like I exchange this refuge in discursive thinking, grasping, anger, etc. for refuge in the invaluable teachings of members of the Sangha.

I hope this makes sense. It was really almost exciting the first time I had these thoughts. I am interested to read what others think about it.

with Metta,
pung S

[Sanghamitta]

I think what you have outlined is a very valuable skillful means, for me one which is in in fact of the utmost value.

[Cittasanto]

Personally I would say no, it is turning to an inspiring sign, but not the sangha.

at the loosest definition it is any friend on the path, or a community, for help.
so in a way it is as it as a Dhamma practitioner who practised well, but not as a definition, but personally I think it is just an inspiring sign you turn to, a good one, and shows a degree of maturity on the path as you have found a way to apply right effort to the problem at hand without needing to seek assistance, so discernment and clear seeing are being used appropriately.

I may post a contradictory reply later, you have me thinking about this, and its many levels.

[Goofaholix]

Lately, I have been thinking about something when I get upset with another person. If there is some sort of animosity building or a definite case of grasping at anger or discursive thinking, I think about that person and then I say to myself, "Ajahn Chah was a real person.

I don't really see what this has to do with refuge in sangha. When you notice upset, animosity, grasping, or discursive thinking arising you should notice how it arises and how it passes away.

If that is too difficult right now then it's fine to use a skillful means to replace negative emotion with positive emotion, as long as you are aware that this is what you are doing.

[cooran]

Hello all,

The Sangha: The Sangha that a Buddhist takes refuge in is the community of Noble Ones who have led exemplary lives and attained extraordinary insight into the true nature of things. Their lives and achievements show others that it is possible to progress on the path to Enlightenment.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bs-s17.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[perkele]

Whatever you call it, whatever other people want to call it/don't want to call it. Good that you have it!

[Cittasanto]

Well I have had a reflection on it, and Keep comming back to this!

[Iti pi so Bhagavā] arahaṃ sammāsambuddho
He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Pure One, the Perfectly Enlightened One.
Vijjācaraṇa-sampanno
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding,
Sugato
The Accomplished One,
Lokavidū
The Knower of the Worlds.
Anuttaro purisadamma-sārathi
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained.
Satthā deva-manussanaṃ
He is Teacher of gods and humans.
Buddho bhagavā
He is Awake and Holy.
{Svākkhāto} bhagavatā dhammo
The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One,
Sandiṭṭhiko
Apparent here and now,
Akāliko
Timeless,
Ehipassiko
Encouraging investigation,
Opanayiko
Leading inwards,
Paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi
To be experienced individually by the wise.
{Supaṭipanno} bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
They are the Blessed One’s disciples, who have practised well,
Ujupaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Who have practised directly,
Ñāyapaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Who have practised insightfully,
Sāmīcipaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Those who practise with integrity —
Yadidaṃ cattāri purisayugāni aṭṭha purisapuggalā
That is the four pairs, the eight kinds of noble beings —
Esa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
These are the Blessed One’s disciples.
Āhuṇeyyo
Such ones are worthy of gifts,
Pāhuṇeyyo
Worthy of hospitality,
Dakkhiṇeyyo
Worthy of offerings,
Añjali-karaṇīyo
Worthy of respect;
Anuttaraṃ punnakkhettaṃ lokassa"ti
They give occasion for incomparable goodness to arise in the world.

I also thought about it being a form of taking the Buddha as Refuge, indirectly, but a good way of framing the triple gem is enlightenment, truth & friendship, and I don't know if you believe Ajahn Chah to be enlightened or not, but if you do what you describe maybe similar to the early disciples asking themselves "What would Buddha do?" except now the actual Buddha is many centuries removed and can be almost a myth at times, but a real life Enlightened Being! well there is an example, even only in part, of the Buddha!

[JeffR]

It sounds to me like you are taking refuge in Ajahn Chah, a distinguished figure in the Sangha. So I say, yes, it is refuge in the Sangha.

[daverupa]

Just a point of clarity:

One goes for refuge to the Triple Gem. One does not take refuge from it, nor does one take refuge in it.

[SamBodhi]

Thank you all very much for your input. I have come down with a sickness and I have not been able to respond to much of anything lately, online or off. I am very glad that I posted this.

Cittasanto,
what is the "Buddha Dhamma Saṅgha-guṇā – virtues of the triple gem" from? The quote you posted, that is.

I suppose that I am allowed to call it what I want to call it, but because Refuge is something so central and important, I wanted to make sure that I was not reducing it to something its not. I will just call it skillful. I certainly admire Ajahn Chah and I would consider him something of a "noble friend."

Like I said, I am feeling sick so I am sorry, if I am not really able to give the proper response. Thanks again!

with Metta,
pung S

[Cittasanto]

Thank you all very much for your input. I have come down with a sickness and I have not been able to respond to much of anything lately, online or off. I am very glad that I posted this.

Cittasanto,
what is the "Buddha Dhamma Saṅgha-guṇā – virtues of the triple gem" from? The quote you posted, that is.

I suppose that I am allowed to call it what I want to call it, but because Refuge is something so central and important, I wanted to make sure that I was not reducing it to something its not. I will just call it skillful. I certainly admire Ajahn Chah and I would consider him something of a "noble friend."

Like I said, I am feeling sick so I am sorry, if I am not really able to give the proper response. Thanks again!

with Metta,
pung S

it is found in a few places in the suttas, but I don't think as found in the Verses I quoted, rather it is an excerpt
see SN11.003 http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Dhajagga_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Dhammarakkhito]

Well I have had a reflection on it, and Keep comming back to this!

[Iti pi so Bhagavā] arahaṃ sammāsambuddho
He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Pure One, the Perfectly Enlightened One.
Vijjācaraṇa-sampanno
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding,
Sugato
The Accomplished One,
Lokavidū
The Knower of the Worlds.
Anuttaro purisadamma-sārathi
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained.
Satthā deva-manussanaṃ
He is Teacher of gods and humans.
Buddho bhagavā
He is Awake and Holy.
{Svākkhāto} bhagavatā dhammo
The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One,
Sandiṭṭhiko
Apparent here and now,
Akāliko
Timeless,
Ehipassiko
Encouraging investigation,
Opanayiko
Leading inwards,
Paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi
To be experienced individually by the wise.
{Supaṭipanno} bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
They are the Blessed One’s disciples, who have practised well,
Ujupaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Who have practised directly,
Ñāyapaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Who have practised insightfully,
Sāmīcipaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Those who practise with integrity —
Yadidaṃ cattāri purisayugāni aṭṭha purisapuggalā
That is the four pairs, the eight kinds of noble beings —
Esa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
These are the Blessed One’s disciples.
Āhuṇeyyo
Such ones are worthy of gifts,
Pāhuṇeyyo
Worthy of hospitality,
Dakkhiṇeyyo
Worthy of offerings,
Añjali-karaṇīyo
Worthy of respect;
Anuttaraṃ punnakkhettaṃ lokassa"ti
They give occasion for incomparable goodness to arise in the world.

I also thought about it being a form of taking the Buddha as Refuge, indirectly, but a good way of framing the triple gem is enlightenment, truth & friendship, and I don't know if you believe Ajahn Chah to be enlightened or not, but if you do what you describe maybe similar to the early disciples asking themselves "What would Buddha do?" except now the actual Buddha is many centuries removed and can be almost a myth at times, but a real life Enlightened Being! well there is an example, even only in part, of the Buddha!

i believe there are a few errors in your chant http://chantpali.org/homage.html#buddhagunavandana

[justindesilva]

Hello all,

The Sangha: The Sangha that a Buddhist takes refuge in is the community of Noble Ones who have led exemplary lives and attained extraordinary insight into the true nature of things. Their lives and achievements show others that it is possible to progress on the path to Enlightenment.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bs-s17.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

A portion well worth reading.
Sangha is the lineage of Lord Buddha. While budda explored the damma and taught it to the world it is the maha sangha who protected and retained it to be handed over to the future generations.
We often see the ills of sangha without understanding their difficulties. They have engaged in a difficult task of sacrificing personnel life to observe sila taught by the budda and to retain and explain this damma to the lay societies. If not for this sacrifice there will not be any damma left for us to observe.
Therefore we must see the Sangha not as individuals or a flock or a cloud. Those who live in eastern countries or the Buddhist countries can see that they the Sangha are really busy in joining the ceremonies of alms giving and or funerals as these ceremonies have become a part and parcel of the society. While engaging in these rituals they are fulfilling the need of education of budda damma. Teaching budda damma needs understanding the damma too. These sangha clans start their day very early before sunrise and sleep very late.
They are dutiful for not selfish reasons but to treat the general lay masses with the budda darma while they in an errand to relieve them to attain the marga phala that they have realised is necessary to escape from suffering.
The maha sangha contains all in the past , present and the future.
At an alms giving for sangha we make it "sanghika" with an offering for 6 or more sangha with certain pali gatha or recitals which means the sangha who lived as a lineage of Lord budda.

[Cittasanto]

i believe there are a few errors in your chant http://chantpali.org/homage.html#buddhagunavandana

Where exactly? it maybe simply the rendition of the chant I have used as oposed to the site you use.
There are variant readings at times.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto

[Dhammarakkhito]

manussānaṃ, āhuneyyo, pāhuneyyo, puññakkhettaṃ, lokassā

yes there are many different spellings found online