Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:27 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...muslims actually do assimilate.... ALL of the muslims I knew there had assimilated....
What does this supposed to mean? Did those Muslims change drastically somehow from what they previously were? Did they change their names from Mustafa to Maxwell?
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...assimilate. I lived most of my life in the usa ...
So was not changing your name from 'Chownah' to 'Chuck' an example of non-assimilation? ;)
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:13 pm
Yes, that's right. It does not alter the reality that fringe alt-right political views are crap. I am surprised to encounter, for the first time, someone whom I regard as intelligent, but who believes this alt-right nonsense and accepts ridiculous views espoused by the likes of Alex Jones. I suppose having a political disagreement is, in your view, not treating others with dignity and respect?
Exactly who was being refereed to above as "intelligent"? Noam Chomsky or myself? As for the alt-right, they have their grievances, which a good Buddhist considers, just as a good Buddhist considers the grievances of Transfolk. As for Alex Jones, I don't follow him. As for George Soros, people judge him according his actions. As for Obama & Hillary, they arranged the murder of lots of people; just as Bush & Cheney.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

Garrib
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Garrib » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:27 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...muslims actually do assimilate.... ALL of the muslims I knew there had assimilated....
What does this supposed to mean? Did those Muslims change drastically somehow from what they previously were? Did they change their names from Mustafa to Maxwell?
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...assimilate. I lived most of my life in the usa ...
So was not changing your name from 'Chownah' to 'Chuck' an example of non-assimilation? ;)
Yes, many of them changed a great deal - started speaking English, wearing more westernized clothing styles, kids play in western bands, play on the football team, go to school with and hang out with non-muslim friends etc...

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:49 am

Garrib wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:45 am
Yes, many of them changed a great deal - started speaking English, wearing more westernized clothing styles, kids play in western bands, play on the football team, go to school with and hang out with non-muslim friends etc..
Most of the above sounds quite materialistic. For example, if they started doing drugs, drinking alcohol & having random sex with non-Muslims, they probably ceased to be 'Muslims'. I suppose I am also asking what exactly is the 'Western culture' they are assimilating to?
Garrib wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:45 am
This is a huge red flag - I infer that whoever made the video has a childishly simplistic understanding of the world in general, and is very like a racist (such characteristics go very well together). What do you think?
I think the same about the video despite the video having some valid concerns because many violent Middle-Eastern & African men were allowed into Europe (which for me is not related to Islam but to another agenda). The video seems to blame Islam for certain problems. Retrofuturist seems to blame George Soros for those same problems. I like to blame Obama & Hillary for those problems. I think the point is there is a growing problem in Europe & it is important to recognise there is a problem then try to discover the causes.

chownah
Posts: 7579
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:24 am
Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:16 am
It seems that when retrofuturist grasps the logic he becomes dismissive so he rejects the logic.
It seems chownah ought to speak for himself, rather than spilling even more of his erroneous conjecture all over the place. Chownah should ask if unsure, as this would be preferable to more rampant speculation which has no founding whatsoever in reality.
I said that "it seems" because I AM speaking for myself so there is no reason to say I "ought" to speak for myself.

It seems to me that you do not apply that logic to those issues. Do you apply that logic to those issues? Do you apply that logic (which you call "dismissive logic") at all?

If you were to grasp that logic would you become dismissive?....if not then why did you label it "dismissive" logic.....there is nothing in and of itself in that logic which can be called dismissive....logic is not dismissive, people are dismissive.

Also, you have completely ignored my main point which is "Others grasp the logic as a first step in understanding the way things really are and as a starting point for determining a path which might lead out of the dilemma." Instead you berate me for being mistaken in interpreting your position....without even a pretense of trying to better inform me. Quibble.

So, I invite you to respond to the idea that this kind of logic need not be dismissive at all but can be a first step in understanding the way things really are and as a starting point for determining a path which might lead out of the dilemma.
chownah

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:21 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:09 am
Garrib wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:37 am


So the Muslims who have been living and practicing their religion peacefully for decades in my hometown (Greater Seattle area) must be mythical creatures?
Huh? Could you clarify as I don't understand your question.
I think that garrib is saying that alot of muslims actually do assimilate. I lived most of my life in the usa and ALL of the muslims I knew there had assimilated. Mosly you would never know that they were muslims.....and most of them were immigrants.
chownah
I think the USA is a bit different than Europe with regards to Muslim immigrant assimilation. What we haven't heard anything from are Europeans that are currently living amongst large Muslim populations and how they see the assimilation over decades taking place. Most of the French people I know say the situation is out of hand there. The finger gets pointed both ways, at the government for not doing enough, and the Muslims for not doing enough. Meanwhile, the population is growing with no real change in attitudes and assimilation. World migration has its problems. The force of it knows no philosophy except survival. When there is enough food on the table, there begins another kind of hurdle, belief systems. This doesn't seem to change very easily. It's the strengthening of these belief systems that get put into place by the religious leaders, politicians, and the street. On that level, nothing much has changed in history. The Crusades are still being fought 1000 years later. The dormant period is over. How are people going to get over their beliefs, their conditioning? They haven't shown much proclivity for doing this. Most tolerance is force fed through rhetoric. Each person must throw off the burden of the past and their culture to be truly tolerant. What are the odds of that happening? :shrug:

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20150
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:25 am

Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:20 am
Quibble.
Thank you for providing this concise summary of your post.

Now, for the last time...

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
Posts: 7579
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:27 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...muslims actually do assimilate.... ALL of the muslims I knew there had assimilated....
What does this supposed to mean? Did those Muslims change drastically somehow from what they previously were? Did they change their names from Mustafa to Maxwell?
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 am
...assimilate. I lived most of my life in the usa ...
So was not changing your name from 'Chownah' to 'Chuck' an example of non-assimilation? ;)
Yeah, what does it mean to "assimilate"? Good question. Does someone have to change their name to assimilate? Do they need to change their religion to assimilate?

What I meant is that they voted, promoted democracy, supported law and order through the american justice system, raised typical american children (which means they are just like the others), some of their wives wore hajib sometimes at least and it was not an issue or at least if it was an issue it was privately held, they abhor the violence done by jihadists.....they ate pizza but some would require no pork. They did not drink beer so maybe they really weren't assimilated. They did not change their names but that really has nothing to do with assimilation.
chownah

chownah
Posts: 7579
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:46 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:21 am
I think the USA is a bit different than Europe with regards to Muslim immigrant assimilation.
Absolutely. I was only responding to the mistaken assertion that muslims NEVER assimilate. I think that the american experience is that alot of muslims do assimilate.

It might be that america has a history of assimilating immigrants while europe does not.
It might be that american culture emerged without close powerful neighbors so there was not need to be so assertive about culture to maintain boundaries while europe has been a politically overcrowded neighborhood for hundreds of years; cultural imperatives arose as a natural method to enforce boundaries.
It might be that the concentration of muslims in the usa is very low compared to europe.

I think that unless europeans start having more babies it is inevitable that eventually the cultures there will change alot because I don't think that assimilation of large numbers will happen fast enough to maintain the cultural status quo (as if culture was static at all). Think of how american culture has impacted europe even though there hasn't really been much american immigration there.....france fights to keep americanisms out of the language, blues and jazz, movies, etc........what about the internet and its effects on culture?.....going to ban the internet to maintain purity of culture?
chownah

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:58 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:31 am
What I meant is that they voted, promoted democracy, supported law and order... they abhor the violence done by jihadists.....
Sure. But my impression, based on your posts on this forum, is you seem to dismiss as 'propaganda' the historical facts that:

1. the UK then the US established & supported a Wahhabi Saud family dictatorship in Arabia; which funds & gives the ideology of the terrorism

2. most Muslim nations (Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, maybe Indonesia) after the ending of European colonialism embraced democracy only to have their democracies attacked & destroyed by the US imposing puppet dictatorships, including Saddam Hussein

3. nations the US destroyed post-9/11 and wants to destroy, namely, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, are those Muslim nations that crush terrorists

4. in other words, at least to me, what appear to assertions of 'assimilation' & 'American exceptionalism' are a non-sequitur mythology

5. the US has installed countless murderous dictatorships throughout Africa, Asia & the Americas since WW2

6. i think the idea that Muslims assimilate to US law & order is false & patronizing because Islam inherently has law & order

:roll:

chownah
Posts: 7579
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:58 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:31 am
What I meant is that they voted, promoted democracy, supported law and order... they abhor the violence done by jihadists.....
Sure. But my impression, based on your posts on this forum, is you seem to dismiss as 'propaganda' the historical facts that:

1. the UK then the US established & supported a Wahhabi Saud family dictatorship in Arabia; which funds & gives the ideology of the terrorism

2. most Muslim nations (Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, maybe Indonesia) after the ending of European colonialism embraced democracy only to have their democracies attacked & destroyed by the US imposing puppet dictatorships, including Saddam Hussein

3. nations the US destroyed post-9/11 and wants to destroy, namely, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, are those Muslim nations that crush terrorists

4. in other words, at least to me, what appear to assertions of 'assimilation' & 'American exceptionalism' are a non-sequitur mythology

5. the US has installed countless murderous dictatorships throughout Africa, Asia & the Americas since WW2

6. i think the idea that Muslims assimilate to US law & order is false & patronizing because Islam inherently has law & order

:roll:
Concerning 1,2,3, and 5: I believe I have so far not taken a position on any of these. What I have hoped that I expressed in my previous posts is that your posting is in the style of a propogandist. I agree with some of what you said and disagree with some of what you said....but even the things I agree with your presentation is too one sided and insistent for me to think of it as anything other than propogandistic. For instance, providing an ocean of facts covering many far reaching and diverse aspects of an issue all at once in one big lump is a technique used by propogandists to overwhelm and thereby befuddle and the only way to respond to all of what is said is to dedicate a month to create a documentary....anything less just leads to countless rounds mutual misunderstandings and a befuddled discussion....propogandists love this.

Concerning 4: I said nothing about exceptional anything.
Concerning 6: I did not assume that these immigrants only found out about democracy after coming to the usa. If an immigrant supported law and order before they immigrated then it makes it likely that they will have an easier time assimilating....no condescention with respect to this.

Also, in my post I just quickly and randomly gave some things that I have seen that have lead me to the conclusion that they had assimilated.....it is not some kind of detailed analysis of anything....don't try to read too much into it.....my effort making it was reallly minimal....

Finally, isn't whether an immigrant complies/supports/abides by whatever cultural elements one holds dearly the criteria by which one judges if they have assimilated?
chownah

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by L.N. » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:27 am
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:13 pm
Yes, that's right. It does not alter the reality that fringe alt-right political views are crap. I am surprised to encounter, for the first time, someone whom I regard as intelligent, but who believes this alt-right nonsense and accepts ridiculous views espoused by the likes of Alex Jones. I suppose having a political disagreement is, in your view, not treating others with dignity and respect?
Exactly who was being refereed to above as "intelligent"? Noam Chomsky or myself? As for the alt-right, they have their grievances, which a good Buddhist considers, just as a good Buddhist considers the grievances of Transfolk. As for Alex Jones, I don't follow him. As for George Soros, people judge him according his actions. As for Obama & Hillary, they arranged the murder of lots of people; just as Bush & Cheney.
I was actually referring to the post by retrofuturist regarding Soros (third post from the top), but you are correct, my manner of speaking was not as kind as it could have been, and I apologize.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:54 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:46 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:21 am
I think the USA is a bit different than Europe with regards to Muslim immigrant assimilation.
Absolutely. I was only responding to the mistaken assertion that muslims NEVER assimilate. I think that the american experience is that alot of muslims do assimilate.

It might be that america has a history of assimilating immigrants while europe does not.
It might be that american culture emerged without close powerful neighbors so there was not need to be so assertive about culture to maintain boundaries while europe has been a politically overcrowded neighborhood for hundreds of years; cultural imperatives arose as a natural method to enforce boundaries.
It might be that the concentration of muslims in the usa is very low compared to europe.

I think that unless europeans start having more babies it is inevitable that eventually the cultures there will change alot because I don't think that assimilation of large numbers will happen fast enough to maintain the cultural status quo (as if culture was static at all). Think of how american culture has impacted europe even though there hasn't really been much american immigration there.....france fights to keep americanisms out of the language, blues and jazz, movies, etc........what about the internet and its effects on culture?.....going to ban the internet to maintain purity of culture?
chownah
I don't know what ethnicity you are, but I grew up in America, white. All the ethnicities lived in their own ghetto, including the white Euro immigrants, Irish, Polish, Italian, etc. All fought with each other, and no one really trusted anyone outside of their 'tribe'. This still goes on to some degree today even though there is a strong liberal ideology running through America. Just ask some black people, or latino, Asians, Jews. Put a different religion and clothing on someone with a different skin color, and you are not really assimilated into American culture, whatever the hell that is. There may be some exceptions, but generally speaking, this is not the way America is. You have to fight to get things. Push your way into the fray in many cases. Bend to the will of someone else. Respect is something that doesn't come naturally to Americans. They are not taught this. Their history is about using violence to establish their white, Christian, way of life. The business model has the same attitude of power.

Go to Native American areas of America and tell me how well they have been assimilated. This is not really understood within America. It is dominated by far right Christian idealism, a doped up, pharmaceutically intoxicated free market mentality that relies on bullying and accumulating all they can, and a pop culture that is based on pure fantasy. It is a sick way of life and getting worse. I'm not saying every one is like this, but it is the overriding factors of this that control the life there. Racism is rampant.

chownah
Posts: 7579
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:17 am

Saengnapha,
I think that your ideas about what it means for someone to be assimilated and my ideas on it are very different. Also, our experiences in america are very different.
chownah

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3373
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:02 am

Re cartoon video page 1
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:55 pm

I had my concerns whether this is typical right wing propaganda.
Seems like fairly typical right wing propaganda to me.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:55 pm
But it is actually seeing the actual reality of what will become of the future if people keep turning a blind eye.
No it isn't. At best that is an opinion.

Try this - Listen to the very first sentence of the clip. Is that first sentence factually correct or incorrect?

User avatar
Dharmasherab
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:53 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Dharmasherab » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:11 am

Five steps to stop Islamic terrorism in Europe.

I cant say I agree with all these points but it is interesting that this article was written by an ex-muslim

http://www.faithfreedom.org/five-steps- ... terrorism/

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests