Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

[Zom]

The body is still the basis for mind. Whether mundane or supramundane experiences, mind and body are not separate. It also has nothing to do with what we think they are.

Body is an ambiguous term in the suttas, especially when it comes to nama-rupa connection. Body can be huge, can be invisible, pertaining to the level of some kamaloka and form realms, and, of course, mind can be separated fully from the body upon reaching formless attainments.

[mal4mac]

Yes, it is a product of mind (better to say, not a product, but a state). But then, what is the mind itself? Why do you think it must be always limited to a physical body...

I'll try to keep an open mind about this.

[mal4mac]

Contemplation of earth and water comes from observing the physical sensations of the solid and liquid parts of the body. Awareness of fire comes from noting body temperature. Air is covered by the breath. https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... t-path.pdf p.150

Though this awareness seems mostly to be based on derived form, experience via the sense bases.

Yes. How can you be aware of "form in itself"? Surely you have to use your senses to sense form? But if you can see "form in itself" then shouldn't you be able to see the form of another world system, or some "generally hidden form", and tell NASA about it? Then NASA could check it out and say, "OK you did see form-in-itself through your mind... thanks for turning my world upside down..."

[Saengnapha]

The body is still the basis for mind. Whether mundane or supramundane experiences, mind and body are not separate. It also has nothing to do with what we think they are.

Body is an ambiguous term in the suttas, especially when it comes to nama-rupa connection. Body can be huge, can be invisible, pertaining to the level of some kamaloka and form realms, and, of course, mind can be separated fully from the body upon reaching formless attainments.

Mind separated fully is debatable, I think. There is a temporary withdrawal from emotional and mental reactions in those samadhi/jhanas. They are not permanent because they are still experience which is composed of subtle subject/object states that are in flux. Body is not what we think it is.

[Saengnapha]

Contemplation of earth and water comes from observing the physical sensations of the solid and liquid parts of the body. Awareness of fire comes from noting body temperature. Air is covered by the breath. https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... t-path.pdf p.150

Though this awareness seems mostly to be based on derived form, experience via the sense bases.

Yes. How can you be aware of "form in itself"? Surely you have to use your senses to sense form? But if you can see "form in itself" then shouldn't you be able to see the form of another world system, or some "generally hidden form", and tell NASA about it? Then NASA could check it out and say, "OK you did see form-in-itself through your mind... thanks for turning my world upside down..."

Form is meant as your own subjective experience through body, feelings, mentation, and mental objects, not the world. All experience is conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfying, and is neither existent nor non-existent. It is our experience of the world that is called into question, not the world around you. I think this is a point that is often missed.

[Zom]

Form is meant as your own subjective experience through body, feelings, mentation, and mental objects, not the world.

Form (rupa) can be inner one (personal) and outer one (external objects). Texts are clear on this matter.

[Saengnapha]

Form is meant as your own subjective experience through body, feelings, mentation, and mental objects, not the world.

Form (rupa) can be inner one (personal) and outer one (external objects). Texts are clear on this matter.

Yes, but the subjective experience of inner and outer is run through the body, its senses/contact/feeling/perception, etc., are all physical processes including thoughts and feelings. This is the stuff that is identified with ownership, self. There is no I thought apart from the senses and the chain of causation. Rupa is subjective, not external. The form that concerns satipatthana, vipassana, and samatha, is the subjective experience of the body which we imbue with ownership and desirability, time and space. This is my point.

[Zom]

In arupaloka where the matter is absent at all, even a fine one, one still experiences perception, feeling. There is no such thing as "body" there.

[Saengnapha]

In arupaloka where the matter is absent at all, even a fine one, one still experiences perception, feeling. There is no such thing as "body" there.

Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is. You can say that matter is absent when you are asleep, but you wake up again. Even if matter were absent, what is the point? Nothing has been established. There is still the subjective experience of the body. Many activities of the body are not conscious like the flow of the blood. We are talking about the senses and contact with stimulation. This is what we manufacture a narrative from. Perceptions result with likes and dislikes plus the dichotomy of subject/object. How does Arupaloka see causation and the manufacturing of dissatisfaction? Arupaloka does not unbind anything. It must be let go of. Am I nuts?

[Dhammanando]

In arupaloka where the matter is absent at all, even a fine one, one still experiences perception, feeling. There is no such thing as "body" there.

Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is. You can say that matter is absent when you are asleep, but you wake up again. Even if matter were absent, what is the point? Nothing has been established. There is still the subjective experience of the body. Many activities of the body are not conscious like the flow of the blood. We are talking about the senses and contact with stimulation. This is what we manufacture a narrative from. Perceptions result with likes and dislikes plus the dichotomy of subject/object. How does Arupaloka see causation and the manufacturing of dissatisfaction? Arupaloka does not unbind anything. It must be let go of. Am I nuts?

Aren't you confusing arūpaloka (i.e. the realm where formless beings live) with arūpajjhāna (a meditative state attainable by humans) ?

[Saengnapha]

In arupaloka where the matter is absent at all, even a fine one, one still experiences perception, feeling. There is no such thing as "body" there.

Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is. You can say that matter is absent when you are asleep, but you wake up again. Even if matter were absent, what is the point? Nothing has been established. There is still the subjective experience of the body. Many activities of the body are not conscious like the flow of the blood. We are talking about the senses and contact with stimulation. This is what we manufacture a narrative from. Perceptions result with likes and dislikes plus the dichotomy of subject/object. How does Arupaloka see causation and the manufacturing of dissatisfaction? Arupaloka does not unbind anything. It must be let go of. Am I nuts?

Aren't you confusing arūpaloka (i.e. the realm where formless beings live) with arūpajjhāna (a meditative state attainable by humans) ?

Bhante, thanks for pointing this out. For some reason, I was assuming Zom was talking about Arupasamadhi because of the connections to kasina meditation. I know nothing about arupaloka. Is it relevant to what I'm talking about?

[Zom]

Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is.

It seems like you don't imagine an existence without a body (or, perhaps, physical bodily organs?). But still, accroding to Dhamma, there is such existence, and no, it is not a "state like a sleep" -) Quite opposite - 3rd arupasphere (sphere of "nothingness") is called "the best and highest in terms of perception".

As for arupasamadhi and the actual rebirth in the corresponding realm - I can't say for sure that these experiences are the same, though, nothing in the texts hints they are different.

[Spiny Norman]

According to Wikipedia kasinas are visual objects, like actual coloured disks, and I see nothing in your sutta references about looking at coloured disks, or other things "out there", with open eyes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasina

I don't know how you would concentrate on a colour without actually looking at it, at least for a while?

I assume that coloured disks emerged as a convenient way to do the practice - easier than painting a wall yellow, or waiting for a blue sky, or going out to find some green grass, or whatever.

Anyway, my personal rule about different methods of practice is "don't knock it until you've tried it".

[Spiny Norman]

Form (rupa) can be inner one (personal) and outer one (external objects). Texts are clear on this matter.

Yes, though there isn't a consensus on the reason for the distinction.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30445&hilit=external%2Finternal

[Saengnapha]

Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is.

It seems like you don't imagine an existence without a body (or, perhaps, physical bodily organs?). But still, accroding to Dhamma, there is such existence, and no, it is not a "state like a sleep" -) Quite opposite - 3rd arupasphere (sphere of "nothingness") is called "the best and highest in terms of perception".

As for arupasamadhi and the actual rebirth in the corresponding realm - I can't say for sure that these experiences are the same, though, nothing in the texts hints they are different.

I am under the impression that the Buddha let go of the sphere of nothingness. Punnaji explains as follows: I'm paraphrasing here....
Next is to give up this awareness of nothing, too. That state, Neither Sensation Nor No Sensation (Nevasanna Nasanna Yatana), threshhold of perception, the ultimate limit. Buddha could not go further and joined with the 5 ascetics and did austerities, but no satisfaction found. He decided to let go of everything and came to the state of Neither Sensation Nor No Sensation again, and let go of that. This is called Sanna Vedayita Nirodha, Cessation of Sensation and Feeling. The complete stopping of the activity called mind. Mind is not separate from body. Mind is an activity of the body and can be stopped. The body becomes ‘like dead’. Metabolism keeps working to maintain body and temperature.
Sensation has stopped. Avijja=insentience. The absence of sensitivity. When waking up from this, one sees how perception creates the world, self, the objective and subjective, which is suffering. Paticca Samupadda. This is awakening from the dream of existence. Nirodha Samapatti is the seeing of what is going on. Stopping of bhava=existence. Cessation/nibbana. You have become a Buddha.