Criticism of Islam

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:39 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:02 am
That being said how did India end up 80% idolatrous Hindus if Muslims had taken over and exterminated them, it doesn't make sense, obviously Muslims and Hindus have lived side by side in India for over 1000 years.
India's Mughal rulers were broadly divided between (1) religiously zealous Muslims who wanted to forcibly convert the infidels and exterminate the recalcitrant, and (2) avaricious Muslims who preferred not to convert the infidels but to let them remain in their unbelief so that they could be fleeced via the jizya tax. Hinduism survived largely because the venal rulers happened to outnumber the pious ones and because large numbers of Hindus chose to pay jizya rather than convert. The enforcement of these tributary payments lasted from the 11th to the 19th century, with occasional interruptions, notably under the (relatively) enlightened rule of Akbar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya#India

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Kusala » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm

What's interesting is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but they aren't given citizenship...but a Buddhist country is supposed to?

UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-51197288
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by paul » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:07 pm

Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm
UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas
In 2016 Barack Obama stated correctly that “we are living in the most peaceful era in human history and the world has never been less violent”. Continuity of this trend will allow a diversity of beliefs to coexist and grow more idiosyncratic side-by-side with each other. This is shown for example by the anti-evolution Christians in the US deep south, whose influence is as strong as ever, and who have successfully passed bills against science education into legislation, allowing them to live within society but maintain their own belief system, including that the world is 7000 years old etc. Theravada countries like Myanmar I think will show the lead in allowing minorities to flourish within their territories. This is looking forward toward the future and not perpetuating mediaeval attitudes from the past. Diversity will allow all the possible religious expressions of humanity to flourish, in accord with what has been recognised as the Anthropocene, or age dominated by human influence. Anthropocentrism, the belief that humans are the most significant entity of the universe, finds concord with Buddhist cosmology where of the three spheres of existence, the human realm is the most favourable destination for advancement:

“Let us human beings apply ourselves wholeheartedly and take up the unique opportunity given by our present birth. In the round of samsara it is extremely rare to rise above the realms of woe, where the way out of suffering cannot be followed, and a human birth is even more favorable to awakening than birth in the realm of the gods. Devas envy us our place, ostensibly so low on the cosmic scale, and wish to be reborn as humans. The Buddha Sasana still thrives, the Dhamma is available in full, there are excellent teachers who are true disciples of the Master, and we are on the best plane for striving.”—-“Teacher of the Devas”, Jootla.
The anthropocentric implication that humans are superior to animals also finds resonance in Theravada cosmology, and Buddhist ideas are converging with the global direction, evidenced by the societal adoption of mindfulness.
Last edited by paul on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:38 am

Greetings,

Posts relating to 'Verifiable Knowledge' and 'The Sphere Of The Secular' have been moved.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm

5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 am

Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm
What's interesting is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but they aren't given citizenship...but a Buddhist country is supposed to?

UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-51197288
Look at the Palestinian refugee population in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. These people are still living in camps, unassimilated into the fabric of society, and still being used as political pawns by Islamic governments against Israel. It's been almost 70 years, and these folks are fellow Muslims and ethnically the same people!

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Kusala » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:34 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 am
Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm
What's interesting is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but they aren't given citizenship...but a Buddhist country is supposed to?

UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-51197288
Look at the Palestinian refugee population in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. These people are still living in camps, unassimilated into the fabric of society, and still being used as political pawns by Islamic governments against Israel. It's been almost 70 years, and these folks are fellow Muslims and ethnically the same people!
I think it's safe to say that the Jews and Buddhists are aware of "Taqiyya".
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:48 pm

Kusala wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:34 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 am
Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm
What's interesting is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but they aren't given citizenship...but a Buddhist country is supposed to?

UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-51197288
Look at the Palestinian refugee population in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. These people are still living in camps, unassimilated into the fabric of society, and still being used as political pawns by Islamic governments against Israel. It's been almost 70 years, and these folks are fellow Muslims and ethnically the same people!
I think it's safe to say that the Jews and Buddhists are aware of "Taqiyya".
I'm not following how that relates to Rohingya and Palestinians. :thinking:

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by justindesilva » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:04 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm
5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.
May be the international journals do not publish well balanced news about the conflicts between Buddhist communities and the Muslim communities. Today in Sri Lanka many townships that had small populations of Muslim communities have grown to be large communities. Their Muslim communities are living as next door neighbours and purchasing of lands for Muslims is helped by the mosque.
Today politicians who have got close ties with the ruling parties are clearing large forest reserves to build Moslem communities with lands developed for settling Moslem communities helped by some middle East countries.
A recent Muslim and sinhala Buddhist conflict was stopped by the government with difficulty. Any involvement between a sinhala Buddhist or a Muslim could be made use of as violence for political advantage.
The worst part is that the Moslem communities are growing in numbers as they observe much less family planning while the buddist families often have small family units. It is observed that in May be another 20 years time the Moslems will have enough voting power to select a president of their own.
Talking of Rohingyas in Myanmar one must remember that Muslim communities from Bangladesh were allowed to enter Myanmar whereas it is these migrants who started harassing the Myanmar Buddhists.
And most interestingly I saw a recent article that by 2050
The number of Muslims in UK will outnumber the rest of the population.
The strategy of the Muslim communities supported by their mosques is producing their generation and is a well planned strategy in Buddhist countries.
It also must be noted that Buddhists have no restriction in marrying a Moslem the Moslems cannot marry Buddhists unless converted. When the Moslem traders came to Sri Lanka long long ago the men came alone and married sinhala buddhist females. These women always since then remained a part of the Moslem community.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Zom » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:59 pm

May be the international journals do not publish well balanced news about the conflicts between Buddhist communities and the Muslim communities. Today in Sri Lanka many townships that had small populations of Muslim communities have grown to be large communities. Their Muslim communities are living as next door neighbours and purchasing of lands for Muslims is helped by the mosque.
Today politicians who have got close ties with the ruling parties are clearing large forest reserves to build Moslem communities with lands developed for settling Moslem communities helped by some middle East countries.
A recent Muslim and sinhala Buddhist conflict was stopped by the government with difficulty. Any involvement between a sinhala Buddhist or a Muslim could be made use of as violence for political advantage.
The worst part is that the Moslem communities are growing in numbers as they observe much less family planning while the buddist families often have small family units.....

The strategy of the Muslim communities supported by their mosques is producing their generation and is a well planned strategy in Buddhist countries.
It also must be noted that Buddhists have no restriction in marrying a Moslem the Moslems cannot marry Buddhists unless converted. When the Moslem traders came to Sri Lanka long long ago the men came alone and married sinhala buddhist females. These women always since then remained a part of the Moslem community.
Yes, this is quite close to what she said to me.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DNS » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:41 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 am
Look at the Palestinian refugee population in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. These people are still living in camps, unassimilated into the fabric of society, and still being used as political pawns by Islamic governments against Israel. It's been almost 70 years, and these folks are fellow Muslims and ethnically the same people!
Unfortunately, this is true. The Palestinians have been pawns, used by Israelis, Americans, and Arabs. From 1948 to 1967 Arab nations had full control of the West Bank, Golan Heights, and the Gaza Strip. After the 6 day war, Israel took control of all those territories and then everyone complained about Israel's occupation. However, the reality was that the Arab nations had control of those areas for 19 years with full opportunity to give that land to the Palestinians as their own independent nation -- but they didn't.

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by SarathW » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:19 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm
5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.
This is near Matale Aluvihara where Tipitaka is first written in Ola leaves.
The majority in around Matale are Muslims.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Saengnapha
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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:04 pm
Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm
5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.
May be the international journals do not publish well balanced news about the conflicts between Buddhist communities and the Muslim communities. Today in Sri Lanka many townships that had small populations of Muslim communities have grown to be large communities. Their Muslim communities are living as next door neighbours and purchasing of lands for Muslims is helped by the mosque.
Today politicians who have got close ties with the ruling parties are clearing large forest reserves to build Moslem communities with lands developed for settling Moslem communities helped by some middle East countries.
A recent Muslim and sinhala Buddhist conflict was stopped by the government with difficulty. Any involvement between a sinhala Buddhist or a Muslim could be made use of as violence for political advantage.
The worst part is that the Moslem communities are growing in numbers as they observe much less family planning while the buddist families often have small family units. It is observed that in May be another 20 years time the Moslems will have enough voting power to select a president of their own.
Talking of Rohingyas in Myanmar one must remember that Muslim communities from Bangladesh were allowed to enter Myanmar whereas it is these migrants who started harassing the Myanmar Buddhists.
And most interestingly I saw a recent article that by 2050
The number of Muslims in UK will outnumber the rest of the population.
The strategy of the Muslim communities supported by their mosques is producing their generation and is a well planned strategy in Buddhist countries.
It also must be noted that Buddhists have no restriction in marrying a Moslem the Moslems cannot marry Buddhists unless converted. When the Moslem traders came to Sri Lanka long long ago the men came alone and married sinhala buddhist females. These women always since then remained a part of the Moslem community.
Decades ago, the Israelis were aware of this problem of proliferation of Muslims through strategic growth of the population. With the creation of the West Bank & Gaza, this has slowed the Israeli Muslim demographic simply by cutting off those Muslims from living in Israel. This is one of the strategic reasons for a 2 state solution from Israel's point of view. The Muslims that currently live in Israel are also benefitting from the economic upswing which usually results in less birthing, more education, and longer life span. Combine that with the ultra orthodox strategy of no birth control and a desire to increase the Jewish population, Israel has given itself more time to work through this problem of remaining a Jewish state with Jewish majority.

It seems that in Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, Myanmar, and Thailand, there is also this fear of the 'other'. Thailand refuses to deal with its Muslim problem in the south in any meaningful way. Religious fear seems to be at the heart of it all. 'Purity' ideology is a fascist concept. Many in the west think that the above Buddhist countries are fascist in their thinking and politics. Are they wrong? Economic problems know no ideology. The poor are poor not because they are Muslim or Buddhist. It seems the control of power is based on economics and the strategic use of ideology/religion keeps one group in control of the other. Democracy was supposed to end this kind of suppression but it doesn't. It creates a caste of the wealthy who go on to suppress what is not in their best interest and control what is in their best interest, money.

What seems to be missing on all sides is balance. How can you have balance when people think either in religious terms or in terms of control? To me, what is missing from the world today is real leadership and value that embraces all people. Maybe that's a dream and this life is not about perfection but a place to suffer. So far, suffering is left untouched by most religions including Buddhism in these countries. It is a bad joke, but it is happening. Very few rise above all this no matter what culture/religion one proclaims. We live a lie.

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:22 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am
Thailand refuses to deal with its Muslim problem in the south in any meaningful way. Religious fear seems to be at the heart of it all.
I don't know where you got this idea. I live in thailand (more than a decade) and I have never seen anything anywhere at anytime that would even hint at religious fear. The situation is simple. The south is historically muslim from way way back. Great britian controlled the area a hundred years ago or so and when they decided to withdraw from control of the area (too much work and not enough benefit I think was the reason) the gave that area to thailand. (This is a simplification but I think basically correct.) So....thailand figures the area is part of thailand....and a large enough percentage of the muslim population wants it to be seperate from thailand. In the 100 years or so since great britian left the area to thailand and the thai gov't took over buddhists from the rest of thailand started exerting their influence.....I don't know for sure but I think that it was basically a well integrated thai society swallowing a small muslim region which was not itself well organized because of its having been under british rule for quite some time (I don't know how long the brits were there.).....this probably meant that all the positions of power and all the good opportunities for wealth accumulation were taken by buddhists.......but some of this might just be my imaginings.
chownah

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Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:22 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:22 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am
Thailand refuses to deal with its Muslim problem in the south in any meaningful way. Religious fear seems to be at the heart of it all.
I don't know where you got this idea. I live in thailand (more than a decade) and I have never seen anything anywhere at anytime that would even hint at religious fear. The situation is simple. The south is historically muslim from way way back. Great britian controlled the area a hundred years ago or so and when they decided to withdraw from control of the area (too much work and not enough benefit I think was the reason) the gave that area to thailand. (This is a simplification but I think basically correct.) So....thailand figures the area is part of thailand....and a large enough percentage of the muslim population wants it to be seperate from thailand. In the 100 years or so since great britian left the area to thailand and the thai gov't took over buddhists from the rest of thailand started exerting their influence.....I don't know for sure but I think that it was basically a well integrated thai society swallowing a small muslim region which was not itself well organized because of its having been under british rule for quite some time (I don't know how long the brits were there.).....this probably meant that all the positions of power and all the good opportunities for wealth accumulation were taken by buddhists.......but some of this might just be my imaginings.
chownah
The situation is anything but simple. This is why there is no resolution after decades of violence. These are poor areas and they happen to hold the majority of Muslims in Thailand, I believe. With the right wing Malaysian Muslim Gov't at the doorstep, it is doubtful that Thailand is going to give up this territory. Add the threat of Muslim terrorism to the Bangkokian equation of the elite here, and it becomes more than just political. The British f*** up just about every place they've ever been, but the problem is clearly a Thai one now. Our wonderful Buddhist based army has disposed of many Rohingya migrants over the years. Thais do a lovely job of sweeping dirt under the carpet. You don't see religious fear because there is nothing to challenge Buddhism here except sectarian beliefs which are a plenty. Dissent is not something Thais can do openly.

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