Animal Rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Ydnan321
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Animal Rebirth

Post by Ydnan321 »

There’s a notable Chinese monk who claimed that animals are fragments of people, i.e. one human can reborn as multiple animals, and vice versa, multiple animals merge to reborn as one human. He said that animals are stupid due to this ‘soul’ split phenomenon. This does not sound right though I could not prove it to be contradicting to Buddhism’s teaching. Anyone knows scripture references that specifically state that x number of human shall be born as x number of animals and vice versa, no more no less. Or references that explicitly deny such claim of multiplicity.

Thanks much,

YN
2600htz
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:


(MN 57)

"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."

(AN 5.57)

"all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.'"

You see, the dog ascetic was going to be reborn as a dog because of his actions.
And when he acted like a dog, it was also because of his actions and his views, not because of something else.

Regards.
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DNS
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by DNS »

I believe Hinduism has a concept like that of a soul splitting into many different beings. It doesn't sound compatible with Buddhism, because that concept would imply a soul that could be split. In Buddhism it is some sort of individual mind stream, no-self or not-self that is reborn, not something that could be split.
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cappuccino
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

The five precepts are human standards.

Acting less than that, you become less than that.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by Dhammanando »

Ydnan321 wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:07 pm There’s a notable Chinese monk who claimed that animals are fragments of people, i.e. one human can reborn as multiple animals, and vice versa, multiple animals merge to reborn as one human. He said that animals are stupid due to this ‘soul’ split phenomenon. This does not sound right though I could not prove it to be contradicting to Buddhism’s teaching. Anyone knows scripture references that specifically state that x number of human shall be born as x number of animals and vice versa, no more no less. Or references that explicitly deny such claim of multiplicity.
In Indian Buddhism it wasn't necessary to assert unitarity because nobody was ever foolish enough to posit anything else. To claim that a unitary being becomes legion or that a legion of beings becomes unitary would render even the most elementary points of doctrine (e.g., ownership of kamma) unintelligible.
attanā va kataṁ pāpaṁ, attanā saṅkilissati,
attanā akataṁ pāpaṁ, attanā va visujjhati,
suddhī asuddhī paccattaṁ, nāñño aññaṁ visodhaye.


By oneself alone is a wicked deed done, by oneself is one defiled,
by oneself is a wicked deed left undone, by oneself alone is one purified,
purity and impurity come from oneself, (for) no one can purify another.
(Dhp. 165)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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BlueLotus
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by BlueLotus »

2600htz wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:21 pm

"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs.
LOL.... I believe the Buddha also said that you create your reality with the way you direct your thoughts. Thoughts turn into form. That is how the entire planet was born.
form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form »

BlueLotus wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:04 am
2600htz wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:21 pm

"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs.
LOL.... I believe the Buddha also said that you create your reality with the way you direct your thoughts. Thoughts turn into form. That is how the entire planet was born.
It should be. There must be interlinks.
Ydnan321
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by Ydnan321 »

Sorry, I’m still stuck on this, would be grateful if anyone could provide explanation stating why multiplicity of animal rebirths is not possible using scripture or well-known master’s accounts/references? Links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

YN
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cappuccino
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Malunkyaputta, if anyone were to say, 'I won't live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not declare to me X … the man would die and those things would still remain undeclared by the Tathagata.

And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life.

Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta
chownah
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by chownah »

A human shares most of its dna with other animals......you could then say that humans are made up of animals I guess...don't know for sure..........but what does it mean?
chownah
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by Dhammanando »

Ydnan321 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 pm Sorry, I’m still stuck on this, would be grateful if anyone could provide explanation stating why multiplicity of animal rebirths is not possible using scripture or well-known master’s accounts/references? Links would be greatly appreciated.
In Dhammapada 37 a citta is said to be "singly-occurring". From this it follows that a mental continuum cannot throw out branches. One citta is followed by another citta, not by two simultaneously arising cittas.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form »

No stories of rebirth has even used the term aliens. Only from people like Billy Meier use terms like more advanced civilisation from outer space coming to teach humans. Not that i believe anything he said.
justindesilva
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am No stories of rebirth has even used the term aliens. Only from people like Billy Meier use terms like more advanced civilisation from outer space coming to teach humans. Not that i believe anything he said.
When Prince SIddartha left the lay life he left his faithful horse Kanthaka at the river Neranjana. Here Kanthaka the horse is said to have died with a broken heart and was said to be borne in a heaven. When Lord budda attained enlightment this former Kanthaka and now a divine being had visited Lord budda several times to understand marga phala and has attained nirvana later.
This story reveals one thing which is that at times animals too are reborn in higher spheres and there are other similar stories too.
form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:01 am
form wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am No stories of rebirth has even used the term aliens. Only from people like Billy Meier use terms like more advanced civilisation from outer space coming to teach humans. Not that i believe anything he said.
When Prince SIddartha left the lay life he left his faithful horse Kanthaka at the river Neranjana. Here Kanthaka the horse is said to have died with a broken heart and was said to be borne in a heaven. When Lord budda attained enlightment this former Kanthaka and now a divine being had visited Lord budda several times to understand marga phala and has attained nirvana later.
This story reveals one thing which is that at times animals too are reborn in higher spheres and there are other similar stories too.
That i know. I remember there was a smiling pig story in a sutta. But if i am not wrong, I think animals do not go beyond desire realm.
form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form »

chownah wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:39 am A human shares most of its dna with other animals......you could then say that humans are made up of animals I guess...don't know for sure..........but what does it mean?
chownah
This dna thing is very scientific stuff. But it will be impossible to directly relate it with rebirth mechanism in the sutta as the biology knowledge between the two eras is 25 thousands years apart.
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