binocular wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:08 pm
Kim OHara wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:43 pmI'm not sure that will make sense, but it's the best I can do. Maybe someone else can do better?
Meditation doesn't happen in some kind of metaphysical and moral vacuum. Just because someone doesn't specify their metaphysical and moral convictions, doesn't automatically mean that they don't have them or that they are beyond them.
That's true.
binocular wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:08 pm
And I suspect the mindfulness folks have plenty of those convictions, and that they are vital to their practice
That's probably true, too.
binocular wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:08 pm
and that one must also have those convictions, or their practice won't work for one.
That's not true, however. The heart of the practice is simply accurate observation of what's going on in our own minds, and its success is quite independent of our specific religious or moral framework. That's why Buddhist meditation and Christian meditation can be so similar and produce such similar results.
Mindfulness without
any metaphysical framework could be problematic, but I'm not sure that any of us really has
no set of beliefs and assumptions underpinning our daily lives. If we think we have none, it's probably because we've never looked for them or at them. And in that case, mindfulness could lead us to look at them and perhaps improve them.
binocular wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:56 am
Kim OHara wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:43 pmIt isn't right, but it's a fairly common 'wrong turning' for people to take. I'm not sure if I can explain the difference in any understandable way, though.
One approach is to liken it to the difference between
observing the breath in meditation, and
controlling the breath - another common 'wrong turning.' When we are trying to simply observe the breath, we can slip into controlling it instead, without even noticing that's what we're doing, and that can lead to all sorts of unwanted tension and discomfort.
Similarly, when we are trying to simply observe the seen, we can slip into trying to actively shut down our thoughts and judgements, rather than letting them float away.
I'm not sure that will make sense, but it's the best I can do. Maybe someone else can do better?
What you're describing is something awfully advanced, namely, direct perception, ie. a perception that is not conditioned.
I find it hard to believe that all those masses of folks doing mindfulness meditation have attained to direct perception.
I think you're setting up an artificial barrier here, or you may be misinterpreting what I said.
Forget the 'direct perception' label, and then forget 'all those masses'.
What I'm talking about is always (I think) momentary in its early stages and often lost quickly, but it's still useful. With practice, it comes more easily and is maintained for longer, but it's still lost easily - and still useful. With
more practice ... I guess we're talking 'awfully advanced' at last.
Like any skill (learning a musical instrument, for instance), it's something that develops with practice and persistence - and it's something that many people give up working on before they get to be really really good at it. That's okay. If they only ever wanted to play "Jingle Bells" and they can, fine.
Kim