Criticism of Islam

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
The Islamic Empire was the pinnacle of world civilization & wealth, which is why it was a prize for many violent plunderers.
Whiles the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, it is also incorrect and a gross exaggeration to say that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth. Also as a further note the actual teachings of Islam did not really have anything to do with whatever progress in science or technology at that time. Actually there is content in the Koran which contradicts basic science.

How Islamic Inventors Did Not Change The World

Myths of Islam: Islam Facilitated the Golden Age of Scientific Discovery

This is an unbiased viewpoint on claims made by some on various inventions that 'Islamic science' was responsible for. Note on some domains it has given fair and due credit to the Muslim inventors that actually discovered/invented things/concepts.

Setting the Record Straight: The Non-Miracle of Islamic Science

Islam and Science - an article which shows the scientific errors in the Quran as well as the Hadeeth.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:03 pm

But Islamic inventors have contributed immensely towards our modern day society. The link above addresses specific claims made in a specific (unscholarly) text by an author by the name of Paul Vallely passing itself off as well-researched, proven, and established history.

Putting the link how here makes it seem as if you mean to imply that Islamic civilizations have contributed quite literally nothing new, which is statistically impossible. That is like saying Rome didn't invent anything. These societies inherited/conquered most of the Roman empire. That inventiveness didn't stop with Muslim rulers, before or after the majority populations in these regions converted from Christianity.

Perhaps you should have included something of the context to that article before posting it as a universal truth concerning the legitimacy of all inventions ascribed to Muslim inventors?

Furthermore, the text itself that the article addresses is not about claims of scientific discoveries predicted by the Qur'an. Nothing in the article is relevant to the blurb you wrote above it here:
Whiles the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, it is also incorrect and a gross exaggeration to say that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth. Also as a further note the actual teachings of Islam did not really have anything to do with whatever progress in science or technology at that time. Actually there is content in the Koran which contradicts basic science.
If you were posting it because it proves that the Qur'an contradicts "science" (as if a text written at such a time could be considered even vaguely scientific, Buddhist texts hardly conform to "science" at all in such a way), the only thing it mentions is that the Qur'an believes in a geocentric universe with a flat earth.

Buddhism believes in Sumeru, a geocentric flat earth cosmology with a cosmic mountain, if we want to be that pedantic and literal. Hardly more scientific IMO than the cosmic world-tree Yggdrasil. This did not prevent Buddhists, as well as Muslims, from determining independently of each other that the world was round.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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DooDoot
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:30 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:02 pm
:embarassed: Sorry!
I personally discern no need to apologize to a call for superficiality of discussion. To commence a discussion for the purpose of understanding & resolving such problems, both Islam & Buddhism must be understood. When a Muslim, via ignorance, says: "Allah commands us to kill all infidels"; we should be able to reply: "No, the Koran does not say this; and the original Muslims did not believe or act like this". In other words, understanding any complicated history of Buddhism vs Islam and also Burmese Buddhism v Thai Buddhism (which had many wars) starts with understanding how people on both sides misconstrue the respective religions. The original article posted on this thread is superficial & often in error thus will probably add more fuel to the fire rather than help. As I originally posted, those so-called Muslims who attacked Buddhism in India were Mongols, many of who were originally Buddhists, who originally massacred many Persian Muslims.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:41 pm

Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 pm
While the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, it is also incorrect and a gross exaggeration to say that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth.
The above seems to be a rather bizarre, illogical & contradictory sentence. If the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, as admitted, then which other civilization was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth? Surely, only isolationist China could be? Regardless, the post is an irrelevant reply to what I posted, which was about how the Islamic Empire was taken over by very violent people due its wealth. The point of my post was to explain it was not really Muslims who attacked Buddhism in India but often ex-Buddhists.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 pm
Myths of Islam: Islam Facilitated the Golden Age of Scientific Discovery

First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by dhimmi Christians and Jews. To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time, and this became the foundation for their own knowledge. (Although one large reason is that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).

Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims. The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam when it was, in fact, a Hindu discovery that was merely introduced to the West by Muslims
.
The above quote is more illogical non-sense & something written by a mind without any Buddha-Dhamma. The mind of Buddha-Dhamma discerns cause & effect and, when appropriate, has a sense of gratitude towards cause & effect. When read with a mind of Buddha-Dhamma (truth discerning wisdom) rather than with a mind of Bodhicitta (lust & intrusiveness to convert all beings to Buddhism), the following is discerned from the above quote:

1. The Muslims preserved Greek & other sciences rather than destroyed other knowledge, like the Christians did in Europe.

2. The Muslims did not kill Christians and Jews but allowed Christians and Jews to develop their talents, which is why Jews in particular became very wealthy under Islam and why Muslims favoured Jews in financial & business matters over Christians.

3. It is ridiculous to say the Muslims cut off access to Greek science from Greece :roll: given Greece was part of the Byzantine Empire, which was between Europe & Islam. It was obviously the Christians who destroy Greek & other Pagan science & philosophy in Europe, including Buddhism, which probably plunged Europe into the Dark Ages.

4. In summary, it does not matter if Islam borrowed ideas from other cultures. The point is Islam advanced those ideas & provided a secular environment for advancement of those ideas.

5. The article is so ignorant it contradicts itself because it affirms the Muslims did not destroy science, Christians, Jews & others. :lol: :roll: :| :?
Paganism was made illegal by an edict of the Emperor Theodosius I in 391. Theodosius I (Latin: Flavius Theodosius Augustus; 11 January 347 – 17 January 395), also known as Theodosius the Great, was Roman Emperor from AD 379 to AD 395. Theodosius was the last emperor to rule over both the eastern and the western halves of the Roman Empire. He ... issued decrees that effectively made Orthodox Nicene Christianity the official state church of the Roman Empire

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:28 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:31 am
What about the "Holy" Roman Empire?
Also, I think that at the time of the crusades europe might have been described with respect to christiainity in a fairly similarly way to how the kingdoms of the middle east were at the time of the "islamic empire".

Poorly written but I hope someone gets the idea.
chownah
I understand what you are talking about exactly.
I think Islamic empire is the reply (retaliation) to the Roman Empire.
This situation has not changed even today except we use different words to explain the same problem.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:44 pm

The original article posted on this thread is superficial & often in error thus will probably add more fuel to the fire rather than help.
Agree.
The biggest problem today is that we trying to solve the present problem with the baggage of the past.
What we should talk about is not what happened thousand years ago.
We should look at the world today and see what is happening around us.
Stay in the present moment.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:01 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:44 pm
We should look at the world today and see what is happening around us.
We should define the true essence or message of each religion to stop the misuse of religion.

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:07 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:41 pm
The above seems to be a rather bizarre, illogical & contradictory sentence. If the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, as admitted, then which other civilization was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth?



If you take a wider view of history throughout the ages and compare historical civilisation it is obvious that Islamic Empire (whatever that means) is not the pinnacle of the world civilisation of wealth. There had been plenty of various different empires which were far more successful than the 'Islamic Empire'.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:41 pm
Regardless, the post is an irrelevant reply to what I posted, which was about how the Islamic Empire was taken over by very violent people due its wealth. The point of my post was to explain it was not really Muslims who attacked Buddhism in India but often ex-Buddhists.


No actually it was relevant because it just disproves the statement that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle of the world civilisation which is false. Yes it was important at that specific time but clearly it was not 'the' pinnacle or any kind of pinnacle. Its best to read actual history rather than propaganda.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:41 pm
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 pm
Myths of Islam: Islam Facilitated the Golden Age of Scientific Discovery

First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by dhimmi Christians and Jews. To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time, and this became the foundation for their own knowledge. (Although one large reason is that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).

Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims. The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam when it was, in fact, a Hindu discovery that was merely introduced to the West by Muslims
.
The above quote is more illogical non-sense & something written by a mind without any Buddha-Dhamma. The mind of Buddha-Dhamma discerns cause & effect and, when appropriate, has a sense of gratitude towards cause & effect. When read with a mind of Buddha-Dhamma (truth discerning wisdom) rather than with a mind of Bodhicitta (lust & intrusiveness to convert all beings to Buddhism), the following is discerned from the above quote:


Actually it is not illogical. Its is just saying that these things were not invented or discovered but instead they were inherited in some way or another when the Islamic Empire expanded. Its a no-brainer. Of course people can show gratitude that efforts were made to preserve what was borrowed which otherwise could have got lost. But this does not mean we have exaggerate their importance by falsifying history where ‘borrowers’ are seen to be the actual ‘inventors’.

Bodhicitta does not mean lust. It means being compassionate towards other beings such as saving them from Samsaric dangers. The will of Buddha to teach other beings and encourage his followers to explain the Dhamma to others is also by an act of compassion. Such an act motivated by compassion should not be mistaken for mundane desires like lust.

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:41 pm
The article is so ignorant it contradicts itself because it affirms the Muslims did not destroy science, Christians, Jews & others.


Actually the article makes a fair analysis of what actually happened against the typical propaganda where it is portrayed where the Islamic Empire as the 'Inventor'. The article just shows that the Islamic Empire just inherited whatever the knowledge which was there in its conquered territories for the most part. That is good enough. But this does not mean that it necessary for people to pander to propaganda and confidently say that "Islamic Empire was the pinnacle of World Civilisation".

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:19 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:30 pm
When a Muslim, via ignorance, says: "Allah commands us to kill all infidels"; we should be able to reply: "No, the Koran does not say this; and the original Muslims did not believe or act like this".


Offensive jihad is mandated in 19 different parts of the Quran. Therefore the above statement is incorrect and is false.

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Offensive Fighting Mandated

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:40 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:03 pm
Putting the link how here makes it seem as if you mean to imply that Islamic civilizations have contributed quite literally nothing new, which is statistically impossible. That is like saying Rome didn't invent anything. These societies inherited/conquered most of the Roman Empire. That inventiveness didn't stop with Muslim rulers, before or after the majority populations in these regions converted from Christianity.

Perhaps you should have included something of the context to that article before posting it as a universal truth concerning the legitimacy of all inventions ascribed to Muslim inventors?


This is why also included in that same post the article 'Setting the Record Straight: The Non-Miracle of Islamic Science' where it fairly explains out what is commonly claimed as inventions where which ones were the actual inventions whiles which ones were inherited.

Setting the Record Straight: The Non-Miracle of Islamic Science

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:03 pm
Furthermore, the text itself that the article addresses is not about claims of scientific discoveries predicted by the Qur'an. Nothing in the article is relevant to the blurb you wrote above it here:
Whiles the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, it is also incorrect and a gross exaggeration to say that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth. Also as a further note the actual teachings of Islam did not really have anything to do with whatever progress in science or technology at that time. Actually there is content in the Koran which contradicts basic science.
If you were posting it because it proves that the Qur'an contradicts "science" (as if a text written at such a time could be considered even vaguely scientific.

Buddhism believes in Sumeru, a geocentric flat earth cosmology with a cosmic mountain, if we want to be that pedantic and literal. Hardly more scientific IMO than the cosmic world-tree Yggdrasil. This did not prevent Buddhists, as well as Muslims, from determining independently of each other that the world was round.


Yes the article is more oriented about whether these things were invented or inherited and not about the content in the Quran. But the idea of 'Islamic Empire during the Middle ages was the key to modern science' is extrapolated from this and sometimes used as propaganda where the meaning of Quranic verses are adjusted to fit modern science. Its just a way of showing that even the science that was inherited and developed - the Islamic teachings didnt have much to do with that. People can misunderstand when statements like 'Islam was the pinnacle of World Civilisation' to mistakenly think that the actual Islamic teachings had science in it.

Lets take a hypothetical example. Lets say that a group of Buddhists went around claiming that 'Buddhist civilisation led to the improvement of scientific discovery'. It is important to note that the actual content in the Buddhist teachings may not have had any influence with respect to those inventions/discoveries. Because people can misunderstand and read too much into these things. Therefore it is best to clarify any misconception before they start to take a strong-hold.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:54 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:07 pm
No actually it was relevant because it just disproves the statement that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle of the world civilisation which is false. Yes it was important at that specific time but clearly it was not 'the' pinnacle or any kind of pinnacle. Its best to read actual history rather than propaganda.
Irrelevant. The article posted in the OP is about how 'Muslims attacked Buddhists in India in around 1000BC'. My point was the Islamic Empire was plundered by non-Muslims, who then became Muslims, who then attacked India. This is an extremely important point. The Mongols who destroyed the Buddhist universities in India were often originally (Mahayana) Buddhists.


Actually it is not illogical. Its a no-brainer.
Irrelevant, again. The relevant matter is Islam originally embraced the world sciences, including Buddhists sciences, who all converged on Baghdad.
Bodhicitta does not mean lust. It means being compassionate towards other beings such as saving them from Samsaric dangers. The will of Buddha to teach other beings and encourage his followers to explain the Dhamma to others is also by an act of compassion. Such an act motivated by compassion should not be mistaken for mundane desires like lust.
Wrong. The Pali suttas literally say Dhamma is only taught to those who wish for it (AN 9.5). The idea of Bodhicitta is alien to the Pali suttas, which is why the Buddha did not each it. The Buddha said in many places he would not save all sentient beings.
Actually the article makes a fair analysis
Try to not be attached to opinions. You posted your opinion, I posted my opinion, that is enough. No need to post our opinions again. The article was clearly illogical because the article sought to attack Islam but actually showed Islam is a positive light. Thanks
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:19 pm
Offensive jihad is mandated in 19 different parts of the Quran. Therefore the above statement is incorrect and is false.

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Offensive Fighting Mandated
I imagine the quotes at the link are out of context because both the Koran & actual Islamic history show the People of the Book (Christians & Jews) and other religious groups were permitted to practise their religion. I think my point here shows how ridiculous the above link is.





All I know as real & true is Islam will have so many more followers than Mahayana Buddhism now & in the future because Mahayana Buddhism could not even save Tibet, let alone save all sentient beings with Bodhicitta. The Dalai Lama had to run away, self-cherishing, in disguise in a military uniform (abandoning the robes) to save himself & left the Tibetan people at the hands of the Chinese (to save them from the feudal Tibetan slavery). Many Tibetans resorted to violence rather than to Buddhism. The Dalai Lama appeared to take refuge in the CIA rather than in the Buddha-Dhamma. :roll:
In the meantime, the CIA had begun assisting the Tibetan guerrillas, leading to their training in Okinawa and Colorado. The first operatives, with radios and weapons, had already been parachuted into Tibet and were making their way towards Lhasa. This operation has been discussed in publications by CIA agents who were in charge but never entered Tibet. Li does not mention that the operation was later aborted, as published CIA sources have long admitted, when the Nixon administration, determined to placate Mao, abruptly abandoned the guerrillas.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/how ... t-in-1959/
:rofl:

The 14th Dalai Lama was financially supported by the CIA between the late 1950s and the mid 1970s, receiving $180,000 dollars per annum. :mrgreen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by lyndon taylor » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:02 am

I think you're mostly right about Muslims DooDoot, but I should say Muslims were more intolerant of idolaters than they were Jews and Christians which at the time at least did not practice idolatry. That being said how did India end up 80% idolatrous Hindus if Muslims had taken over and exterminated them, it doesn't make sense, obviously Muslims and Hindus have lived side by side in India for over 1000 years.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Kusala
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Kusala » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:43 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:44 pm
The original article posted on this thread is superficial & often in error thus will probably add more fuel to the fire rather than help.
Agree.
The biggest problem today is that we trying to solve the present problem with the baggage of the past.
What we should talk about is not what happened thousand years ago.
We should look at the world today and see what is happening around us.
Stay in the present moment.
“The past is never dead. It's not even past.” - William Faulkner
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by paul » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:04 pm

“According to Donald, theoretic cognition led to the post-axial, secular age of the modern world. In the post-axial age of theoretic cognition, the primary dichotomy is no longer between sacred and profane (pre-axial), transcendent and mundane (axial), but rather between the religious and the secular (post-axial) (cf, Bellah and Joas, eds, 2012). At least in the West, science, verifiable knowledge, public discourse, the marketplace and government all take place in the sphere of the secular, whereas religious beliefs and ethical practices are in the sphere of individual, private beliefs and practices.”

Bikkhu Bodhi has been using ‘mundane/transcendental’ and I agree. With the advent of the millennium (2000), I think the wheel has turned and momentum is now towards the next axial age, albeit not for a matter of centuries to come. That can be seen in the the elemental change of the energy form from water (liquid) to air and fire (petrol to electric, from fossil fuel to solar/wind power.)


Mundane Order
Ignorance (avijja)
Kamma formations (sankhara)
Consciousness (viññana)
Mentality-materiality (namarupa)
Sixfold sense base (salayatana)
Contact (phassa)
Feeling (vedana)
Craving (tanha)
Clinging (upadana)
Existence (bhava)
Birth (jati)
Suffering (dukkha)

Transcendental Order
Faith (saddha)
Joy (pamojja)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquillity (passaddhi)
Happiness (sukha)
Concentration (samadhi)
Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)
Disenchantment (nibbida)
Dispassion (viraga)
Emancipation (vimutti)
Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana)
—-Exposition of the Upanisa sutta, Bikkhu Bodhi.

___________________________________________
I found this passage interesting and think the continuing influence of the natural world in Indonesia contributes to it, being an island nation dotted with 127 active volcanoes and difficult terrain:

“In an enchanted world, human beings are surrounded by unseen powers. Does rapid social, political, economic and technological change, along with higher education, weaken belief in magic and a unified moral cosmos? In most Western countries, magic is consigned to fantasy and superstition. Is that also happening in Indonesia? My research suggests that most Indonesians still live in a sacred cosmos and experience an unseen world of spirits and powers.”

Although the suttas frequently promote ‘disenchantment’, there is also the persistent presence of the Deva worlds and this rich aspect is yet to be accommodated as a living reality in western Buddhism and a more widespread attainment of jhana is a necessary factor in its development, and according to the Buddha's instructions, jhana is best obtained in a natural setting.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:15 am

Kusala wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:43 am

“The past is never dead. It's not even past.” - William Faulkner
I do not think Buddha will share this idea.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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