Criticism of Islam

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DooDoot
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Criticism of Islam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am

Split from this topic: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=30869



Islam started in around 600AD rather than in 1000AD, the first date mentioned in the article. Studying history will find two violent nomadic tribes who took over Islam & commenced the heavy violence: (i) Turks; & (i) Mongols. These tribes caused as much bloodshed to Muslims. Many of these Mongols were Buddhists or educated in Buddhism. The Islamic Empire was the pinnacle of world civilization & wealth, which is why it was a prize for many violent plunderers.
The Kara-Khanid Khanate (Persian: آل افراسیاب‎, translit. Āl-i Afrāsiyāb, lit. 'House of Afrisyab'‎) was a Turkic dynasty that ruled in Transoxania in Central Asia, ruled by a dynasty known in literature as the Karakhanids (also spelt Qarakhanids) or Ilek Khanids.[6] Both the dynastic names of Karakhanids and Ilek Khanids refer to royal titles with Kara Kağan being the most important Turkish title up till the end of the dynasty.[7]

The Khanate conquered Transoxania in Central Asia and ruled it between 999–1211.[8][9] Their arrival in Transoxania signaled a definitive shift from Iranian to Turkic predominance in Central Asia,[10] yet the Kara-khanids gradually assimilated the Perso-Arab Muslim culture, while retaining some of their native Turkish culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Khan ... ate#Origin
Mongol invasions and conquests took place throughout the 13th century, resulting in the vast Mongol Empire, which by 1300 covered much of Asia and Eastern Europe. Historians[which?] regard the destruction under the Mongol Empire as results of some of the deadliest conflicts in human history. In addition, Mongol expeditions may have brought the bubonic plague along with them, spreading it across much of Asia and Europe and helping cause massive loss of life in the Black Death of the 14th century.

Large areas of Islamic Central Asia and northeastern Iran were seriously depopulated, as every city or town that resisted the Mongols was subject to destruction. Each soldier was required to execute a certain number of persons, with the number varying according to circumstances. For example, after the conquest of Urgench, each Mongol warrior – in an army group that might have consisted of two tumens (units of 10,000) – was required to execute 24 people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_in ... ntral_Asia

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Kim OHara
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Criticism of Islam

Post by Kim OHara » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
... The Islamic Empire ...
Would you call the British Empire the "Christian Empire"?
If not, why not?

:thinking:
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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:28 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 am
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
... The Islamic Empire ...
Would you call the British Empire the "Christian Empire"?
If not, why not?

:thinking:
Kim
I'd call it "a" Christian empire.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
Studying history will find two violent nomadic tribes who took over Islam & commenced the heavy violence: (i) Turks; & (i) Mongols. These tribes caused as much bloodshed to Muslims. Many of these Mongols were Buddhists or educated in Buddhism. The Islamic Empire was the pinnacle of world civilization & wealth, which is why it was a prize for many violent plunderers.
Good videos about how the Turks started the decline of secular free-will intellectual scientific Islam. A Buddhist group of medical scientists seems to be mentioned in the 1st video.





Parts 3 & 4 on You Tube.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:50 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 am
Would you call the British Empire the "Christian Empire"?
If not, why not?
Thanks Kim. Probably not because my impression is the British Empire started as a (Protestant) commercial empire, which then occasionally used Christianity to justify its ends. Also, there seemed to be a prominent Jewish role in the British & Dutch Empires, which is rarely discussed, but started with the financing of William of Orange (DYOR). From what I have learned, Islam started as a religion & became an empire by sheer unintended chance. Like the Roman Empire, it became a commercial empire exploiting taxing different cultural groups; despite starting as a religious movement.




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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:50 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 am
Would you call the British Empire the "Christian Empire"?
If not, why not?
Thanks Kim. Probably not because my impression is the British Empire started as a (Protestant) commercial empire, which then occasionally used Christianity to justify its ends.
Is there any significant difference between this and the various Arabic empires which happened to have Islam as their local religion? Or the "Buddhist" kingdoms and empires of Southeast Asia? Or the (polytheistic) Roman Empire?
What I'm getting at is that all empires are fundamentally about land, resources and power, and that the religion of their founders is incidental. When that religion is pressed into the service of emperors, kings, feudal lords, presidents, prime ministers, tax collectors, etc, that religion (whichever religion it is) is distorted and misused.
So let's be fair. Call them Roman Empire, Greek Empire, Persian Empire, Mongol Empire, Khmer Empire, etc - not Christian Empire, Islamic Empire, Buddhist Empire, etc - because there never has been and never can be an empire formed, governed and sustained by religion.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by SarathW » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:28 am

because there never has been and never can be an empire formed, governed and sustained by religion.
I would say all empires are sustained through some sort of religion. Even the communism is a form of religion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:16 am

The principle religious order today is unfettered capitalism IMHO
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:00 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:11 am
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:50 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 am
Would you call the British Empire the "Christian Empire"?
If not, why not?
Thanks Kim. Probably not because my impression is the British Empire started as a (Protestant) commercial empire, which then occasionally used Christianity to justify its ends.
Is there any significant difference between this and the various Arabic empires which happened to have Islam as their local religion? Or the "Buddhist" kingdoms and empires of Southeast Asia? Or the (polytheistic) Roman Empire?

... because there never has been and never can be an empire formed, governed and sustained by religion.

:namaste:
Kim
Well, Muhammad unified the Arabian Peninsula, was a statesman and a military leader, so there is a difference. Muhammad, the founder of the religion of Islam, set a precedent for expanding the religion via state expansion, military campaigns, taxes, etc. His direct successor became a Caliph, and it is from this direct continuation of Muhammad's political-religious leadership that all the Islamic empires gain precedent.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:41 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:11 am
Is there any significant difference between this and the various Arabic empires which happened to have Islam as their local religion?
Judged on the basis of imperialism, including cultural or religious imperialism, i would say there is no significant difference.
What I'm getting at is that all empires are fundamentally about land, resources and power, and that the religion of their founders is incidental.
Sure. I agree.
So let's be fair. Call them Roman Empire, Greek Empire, Persian Empire, Mongol Empire, Khmer Empire, etc - not Christian Empire, Islamic Empire, Buddhist Empire, etc - because there never has been and never can be an empire formed, governed and sustained by religion.
Mmmm... I tend to disagree here because I have heard, which is logical, that the early Muslims believed they were spreading morality (by the sword); similar to how the US masqueraded as invading Iraq to free the Iraqi people. Personally, I view Islam as a political religion; similar to how Christianity sought to civilise & save indigenous people in Australia. Political religion is described in the Old Testament, where the Hebrews say they invaded Canaan, genocide the local people so to not be polluted by their lifestyle, and then establish a moral society governed by the Torah.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:31 am

What about the "Holy" Roman Empire?
Also, I think that at the time of the crusades europe might have been described with respect to christiainity in a fairly similarly way to how the kingdoms of the middle east were at the time of the "islamic empire".

Poorly written but I hope someone gets the idea.
chownah

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:41 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:11 am
Is there any significant difference between this and the various Arabic empires which happened to have Islam as their local religion?
Judged on the basis of imperialism, including cultural or religious imperialism, i would say there is no significant difference.
What I'm getting at is that all empires are fundamentally about land, resources and power, and that the religion of their founders is incidental.
Sure. I agree.
So let's be fair. Call them Roman Empire, Greek Empire, Persian Empire, Mongol Empire, Khmer Empire, etc - not Christian Empire, Islamic Empire, Buddhist Empire, etc - because there never has been and never can be an empire formed, governed and sustained by religion.
Mmmm... I tend to disagree here because I have heard, which is logical, that the early Muslims believed they were spreading morality (by the sword); similar to how the US masqueraded as invading Iraq to free the Iraqi people. Personally, I view Islam as a political religion; similar to how Christianity sought to civilise & save indigenous people in Australia. Political religion is described in the Old Testament, where the Hebrews say they invaded Canaan, genocide the local people so to not be polluted by their lifestyle, and then establish a moral society governed by the Torah.
The examples you give seem to support my contention that governments, up to and including emperors, use religion far more than follow it. It's a convenient pretext for invading, slaughtering, raping, enslaving ... all the usual stuff ... but it is rarely, if ever, the underlying reason for that stuff. The reason, of course, is power and its byproducts, money and sex.
And the religions, rightly understood and followed, all say that we should be nice to each other.
:toilet:
I will say it again, differently: an "Islamic Empire", like a "Christian Empire", is a contradiction in terms.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:37 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:27 am
The examples you give seem to support my contention that governments, up to and including emperors, use religion far more than follow it. It's a convenient pretext for invading, slaughtering, raping, enslaving ... all the usual stuff ... but it is rarely, if ever, the underlying reason for that stuff. The reason, of course, is power and its byproducts, money and sex.
Since you have expressed the above so clearly, I will agree here.
And the religions, rightly understood and followed, all say that we should be nice to each other.
Mostly, yes, except official Quranic Islam of Muhammad does have the doctrine of defensive war, which Uma the 2nd Caliph (in the video) construed into a defensive war of attack, i.e., attack the country that is attacking you merely than just defend your territory.
I will say it again, differently: an "Islamic Empire", like a "Christian Empire", is a contradiction in terms.
Based on the original tenets of Islam that included defensive war, yes, the Empire masquerading under Islam certainly went beyond military defensiveness. However, Islam differs from Buddhism & Biblical Christianity in that has does have an official doctrine of war & militarism for the protection of the Ummah (Community).

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:16 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:27 am

I will say it again, differently: an "Islamic Empire", like a "Christian Empire", is a contradiction in terms.
It might mean that a christian empire is an empire which uses christian doctrines as the justification for its acts....etc. This makes sense in that isn't the justification for an empire's acts how empires are classified? For instance don't we call it the roman empire because its actions were justified by the edicts of the roman emperor?....or something similar?
Question: how do we classify empires?
chownah

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:26 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:16 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:27 am

I will say it again, differently: an "Islamic Empire", like a "Christian Empire", is a contradiction in terms.
It might mean that a christian empire is an empire which uses christian doctrines as the justification for its acts....etc. This makes sense in that isn't the justification for an empire's acts how empires are classified? For instance don't we call it the roman empire because its actions were justified by the edicts of the roman emperor?....or something similar?
Question: how do we classify empires?
chownah
Splitting ethnic and religious identity is a generally a newer phenomenon, although people have been converting from X to Y or Y to X since there was X and Y to switch between. For instance, when the Turks, aforementionedly, raided much of Europe, they were called the Saracens by the Europeans. A completely different "identity category" than either Muslim, Turk, Arab, etc. They were not called the Mohammedan Empire or something similar of the like, because Islam was often understood by the Europeans to be a heretic Christianity, rather than its own religion.

To be fair, no one really cared back then how someone "self-identified". For instance, the "Saracens" referred to all Europeans (& Christians generally) as "the Franks".
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:09 am
The Islamic Empire was the pinnacle of world civilization & wealth, which is why it was a prize for many violent plunderers.
Whiles the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, it is also incorrect and a gross exaggeration to say that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth. Also as a further note the actual teachings of Islam did not really have anything to do with whatever progress in science or technology at that time. Actually there is content in the Koran which contradicts basic science.

How Islamic Inventors Did Not Change The World

Myths of Islam: Islam Facilitated the Golden Age of Scientific Discovery

This is an unbiased viewpoint on claims made by some on various inventions that 'Islamic science' was responsible for. Note on some domains it has given fair and due credit to the Muslim inventors that actually discovered/invented things/concepts.

Setting the Record Straight: The Non-Miracle of Islamic Science

Islam and Science - an article which shows the scientific errors in the Quran as well as the Hadeeth.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:03 pm

But Islamic inventors have contributed immensely towards our modern day society. The link above addresses specific claims made in a specific (unscholarly) text by an author by the name of Paul Vallely passing itself off as well-researched, proven, and established history.

Putting the link how here makes it seem as if you mean to imply that Islamic civilizations have contributed quite literally nothing new, which is statistically impossible. That is like saying Rome didn't invent anything. These societies inherited/conquered most of the Roman empire. That inventiveness didn't stop with Muslim rulers, before or after the majority populations in these regions converted from Christianity.

Perhaps you should have included something of the context to that article before posting it as a universal truth concerning the legitimacy of all inventions ascribed to Muslim inventors?

Furthermore, the text itself that the article addresses is not about claims of scientific discoveries predicted by the Qur'an. Nothing in the article is relevant to the blurb you wrote above it here:
Whiles the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, it is also incorrect and a gross exaggeration to say that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth. Also as a further note the actual teachings of Islam did not really have anything to do with whatever progress in science or technology at that time. Actually there is content in the Koran which contradicts basic science.
If you were posting it because it proves that the Qur'an contradicts "science" (as if a text written at such a time could be considered even vaguely scientific, Buddhist texts hardly conform to "science" at all in such a way), the only thing it mentions is that the Qur'an believes in a geocentric universe with a flat earth.

Buddhism believes in Sumeru, a geocentric flat earth cosmology with a cosmic mountain, if we want to be that pedantic and literal. Hardly more scientific IMO than the cosmic world-tree Yggdrasil. This did not prevent Buddhists, as well as Muslims, from determining independently of each other that the world was round.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:30 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:02 pm
:embarassed: Sorry!
I personally discern no need to apologize to a call for superficiality of discussion. To commence a discussion for the purpose of understanding & resolving such problems, both Islam & Buddhism must be understood. When a Muslim, via ignorance, says: "Allah commands us to kill all infidels"; we should be able to reply: "No, the Koran does not say this; and the original Muslims did not believe or act like this". In other words, understanding any complicated history of Buddhism vs Islam and also Burmese Buddhism v Thai Buddhism (which had many wars) starts with understanding how people on both sides misconstrue the respective religions. The original article posted on this thread is superficial & often in error thus will probably add more fuel to the fire rather than help. As I originally posted, those so-called Muslims who attacked Buddhism in India were Mongols, many of who were originally Buddhists, who originally massacred many Persian Muslims.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:41 pm

Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 pm
While the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, it is also incorrect and a gross exaggeration to say that the Islamic Empire was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth.
The above seems to be a rather bizarre, illogical & contradictory sentence. If the Islamic world during the Middle ages was developed more than Europe at that time, as admitted, then which other civilization was the pinnacle or world civilisation and wealth? Surely, only isolationist China could be? Regardless, the post is an irrelevant reply to what I posted, which was about how the Islamic Empire was taken over by very violent people due its wealth. The point of my post was to explain it was not really Muslims who attacked Buddhism in India but often ex-Buddhists.
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 pm
Myths of Islam: Islam Facilitated the Golden Age of Scientific Discovery

First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by dhimmi Christians and Jews. To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time, and this became the foundation for their own knowledge. (Although one large reason is that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).

Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims. The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam when it was, in fact, a Hindu discovery that was merely introduced to the West by Muslims
.
The above quote is more illogical non-sense & something written by a mind without any Buddha-Dhamma. The mind of Buddha-Dhamma discerns cause & effect and, when appropriate, has a sense of gratitude towards cause & effect. When read with a mind of Buddha-Dhamma (truth discerning wisdom) rather than with a mind of Bodhicitta (lust & intrusiveness to convert all beings to Buddhism), the following is discerned from the above quote:

1. The Muslims preserved Greek & other sciences rather than destroyed other knowledge, like the Christians did in Europe.

2. The Muslims did not kill Christians and Jews but allowed Christians and Jews to develop their talents, which is why Jews in particular became very wealthy under Islam and why Muslims favoured Jews in financial & business matters over Christians.

3. It is ridiculous to say the Muslims cut off access to Greek science from Greece :roll: given Greece was part of the Byzantine Empire, which was between Europe & Islam. It was obviously the Christians who destroy Greek & other Pagan science & philosophy in Europe, including Buddhism, which probably plunged Europe into the Dark Ages.

4. In summary, it does not matter if Islam borrowed ideas from other cultures. The point is Islam advanced those ideas & provided a secular environment for advancement of those ideas.

5. The article is so ignorant it contradicts itself because it affirms the Muslims did not destroy science, Christians, Jews & others. :lol: :roll: :| :?
Paganism was made illegal by an edict of the Emperor Theodosius I in 391. Theodosius I (Latin: Flavius Theodosius Augustus; 11 January 347 – 17 January 395), also known as Theodosius the Great, was Roman Emperor from AD 379 to AD 395. Theodosius was the last emperor to rule over both the eastern and the western halves of the Roman Empire. He ... issued decrees that effectively made Orthodox Nicene Christianity the official state church of the Roman Empire

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Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:28 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:31 am
What about the "Holy" Roman Empire?
Also, I think that at the time of the crusades europe might have been described with respect to christiainity in a fairly similarly way to how the kingdoms of the middle east were at the time of the "islamic empire".

Poorly written but I hope someone gets the idea.
chownah
I understand what you are talking about exactly.
I think Islamic empire is the reply (retaliation) to the Roman Empire.
This situation has not changed even today except we use different words to explain the same problem.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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