Alternative Forms of Vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:09 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:44 am
Then what is Nirodha Samapatti if it is not the knowing of the cause, cessation, and way, out of suffering? Your quote also doesn't account for the Buddha's continuation into Arupa Samadhi from the 4th jhana and into the complete stopping of mind which has no signs and seems to be the transition point to the complete revelation of paticca-samupadda.
I posted what is in the suttas. Where as you are posting your own ideas about a "transition point". I am curious where you get these ideas from? Stopping of mind is not required for revelation of paticca-samupadda, according to the suttas.

Nirodha Samapatti seems best described in MN 43:
What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications (breathing) have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications (thoughts)... his mental fabrications (perception & feeling) have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his (five sense organ) faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Not allowing the mind develop to arupa jhana is mentioned in MN 140. The 8 fold path does not include arupa jhana, which is unnecessary, despite being a natural development.
So too, bhikkhu, then there remains only equanimity [4th jhana], purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant.

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness……to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time.’

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness…to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned.’ He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands thus: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn140
The ideas put forth are from Punnaji's talks on Beyond the 4 Jhanas:Arupa Samadhi, Nirodha Samapatti, and Paticca-Samupadda. They seem quite clear to me and describe what he calls the 2 ways of awakening from the dream of existence. Within one of the talks, he describes what he called the Buddha's 'shortcut'. They are worth anyone's time to listen to as he is one of the few people who are talking about the actual awakening.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 am
Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:06 am
Isnt Satipatthana meditation a different form of meditations outside oof Vipassana? I wanted to focus this thread on Vipassana types only and not Satipatthana.

I was under the impression that the alternative form of Vipassana was more focussed on inductive investigation and deductive investigation.
My understanding is that "vipassana" is seeing things as they are. "Satipatthana" may be a reference to a particular sutta on the foundations of mindfulness (link to info). You may just want to find a good practice and stick with it. Some particular differences (e.g. focusing on nostrils or abdomen, focusing on bodily sensations or other foundations) probably don't make that much difference. Any practice starts with a foundation of sila. Stick with it and be encouraged.
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3162
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:22 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 am
The ideas put forth are from Punnaji's talks on Beyond the 4 Jhanas:Arupa Samadhi, Nirodha Samapatti, and Paticca-Samupadda. They seem quite clear to me and describe what he calls the 2 ways of awakening from the dream of existence. Within one of the talks, he describes what he called the Buddha's 'shortcut'. They are worth anyone's time to listen to as he is one of the few people who are talking about the actual awakening.
This seems to be Punnaji's personal idea. It seems the idea of the Pali suttas is the neutral basis of awakening from the dream of ego existence is the void/luminous mind (pabhassara citta) rather than the ending/absence of mind.
The Continuation of the Round

On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

The Ending of the Round: Full Cessation

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn38
:candle:
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.
The ending of 'the world' (which is a synonym for 'self' & 'suffering') does not require the ending of mind, according to the Pali suttas. To quote:
And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:17 am, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:24 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.
Then what is insight in their daily life, if not seeing things as they are? Another resource:
"One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight (BCBS Edition), 8 March 2011, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:55 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:24 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.
Then what is insight in their daily life, if not seeing things as they are? Another resource:
"One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight (BCBS Edition), 8 March 2011, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html.
It is a limited pov, unsatisfying. It is still a samsaric vision.

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:59 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:55 am
It is a limited pov, unsatisfying. It is still a samsaric vision.
There might be a different word for that other than vipassana.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:22 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 am
The ideas put forth are from Punnaji's talks on Beyond the 4 Jhanas:Arupa Samadhi, Nirodha Samapatti, and Paticca-Samupadda. They seem quite clear to me and describe what he calls the 2 ways of awakening from the dream of existence. Within one of the talks, he describes what he called the Buddha's 'shortcut'. They are worth anyone's time to listen to as he is one of the few people who are talking about the actual awakening.
This seems to be Punnaji's personal idea. It seems the idea of the Pali suttas is the neutral basis of awakening from the dream of ego existence is the void/luminous mind (pabhassara citta) rather than the ending/absence of mind.
The Continuation of the Round

On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

The Ending of the Round: Full Cessation

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn38
:candle:
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:15 am
Vipassana is usually translated as insight. The Buddha's reference to 'seeing things the way they are' was his awakening to dependent origination, paticca-samupadda, and the clear comprehension of how the world, self, and suffering, are created. This is cessation, nibbana. It is supramundane and is not the same as what most call insight in their daily life.
The ending of 'the world' (which is a synonym for 'self' & 'suffering') does not require the ending of mind, according to the Pali suttas. To quote:
And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Punnaji insists that the original meaning of much of Buddhism has been obscured through the ages. This also tallys with my friend UG's comments about his own 'awakening' and how he functioned. Believe what you want as it's all part of the dream, na?

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:02 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:59 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:55 am
It is a limited pov, unsatisfying. It is still a samsaric vision.
There might be a different word for that other than vipassana.
I think as long as one feels there is a doer, or having an insight, or any kind of activity of becoming, it is samsaric and part of one's dream.

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4227
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:44 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:53 am
Does any one know of resources on these alternate forms of Vipassana?
Jack Kornfield's Living Buddhist Masters is available from archive.org, link.
The relevant chapters for dry insight are those on all of the sayādaws in the book, plus U Ba Khin and Ajahn Naeb.

Other resources for the Bhaddanta U Vilāsa / Ajahn Naeb method:

Frank Tullius, Vipassanā Bhāvanā
James Baraz, Ajahn Naeb (audio)
Ajahn Naeb, How Did I Start to Practice?

Ajahn Prani Samreungrat
Prani Samreungrat, A Guide to Mindfulness.pdf
(404.01 KiB) Downloaded 55 times

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1552
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by pilgrim » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:50 am

Just to mention Mahasati here also known as Dynamic Meditation...a Thai innovation.
http://www.mahasati.org/learn_to_medita ... chor703866

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1552
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by pilgrim » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:53 am

Then there is Tejaniya Sayadaw/Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw who teaches a form of Cittanubhavana.
http://ashintejaniya.org/

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3162
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:28 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 am
Punnaji insists that the original meaning of much of Buddhism has been obscured through the ages.
I think the suttas i quoted are fine (unobscured) because how can there be any enlightenment & wisdom without mind? These sutta emphasis the non-arising of craving & becoming rather than the non-arising of consciousness.
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 am
This also tallys with my friend UG's comments about his own 'awakening' and how he functioned. Believe what you want as it's all part of the dream, na?
The 'dream' metaphor sounds OK to me. Consciousness & objects are certainly described as a dream or "magicians illusion" (SN 22.95). Its just the ending of mind part & emphasis on Nirodha Samapatti that the Pali suttas do not emphasise. Nirodha Samapatti is a natural but unnecessary development according to the suttas. There is only a few suttas that describe a path via Nirodha Samapatti because these suttas are probably validating this path, despite is non-necessity.

paul
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by paul » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:50 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:18 am
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the unique discovery of the Buddha was his teaching of paticca-samupadda.
This stereotype text is found in many suttas, for example M 4, 6 ,77:

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’

Referred to is the sixth ‘higher power’, the only supra mundane one, attainable through penetrating insight (vipassana), the extinction of all cankers. From this knowledge arose the four noble truths.
It is this sixth higher power that distinguishes Buddhism from Hinduism, where jhana results in suppression of the hindrances, but no attempt is made to eradicate them entirely. It was this that the Buddha found unsatisfying and which caused him to move on from his teachers and establish his own path leading to complete emancipation.
Last edited by paul on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:06 am

paul wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:50 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:18 am
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the unique discovery of the Buddha was his teaching of paticca-samupadda.
This stereotype text is found in many suttas, for example M 4, 6 ,77:

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’

Referred to is the sixth ‘higher power’, the only supra mundane one, attainable through penetrating insight (vipassana), the extinction of all cankers. From this knowledge arose the four noble truths.
It is this sixth higher power that distinguishes Buddhism from Hinduism, where jhana results in suppression of the hindrances, but no attempt is made to eradicate them entirely. It was this that the Buddha found unsatisfying and which caused him to move on from his teachers and establish his own path.
Have you taken a look at the videos I posted of Punnaji talking about what I mentioned?

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Alternative Forms of Vipassana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:28 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 am
Punnaji insists that the original meaning of much of Buddhism has been obscured through the ages.
I think the suttas i quoted are fine (unobscured) because how can there be any enlightenment & wisdom without mind? These sutta emphasis the non-arising of craving & becoming rather than the non-arising of consciousness.
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:00 am
This also tallys with my friend UG's comments about his own 'awakening' and how he functioned. Believe what you want as it's all part of the dream, na?
The 'dream' metaphor sounds OK to me. Consciousness & objects are certainly described as a dream or "magicians illusion" (SN 22.95). Its just the ending of mind part & emphasis on Nirodha Samapatti that the Pali suttas do not emphasise. Nirodha Samapatti is a natural but unnecessary development according to the suttas. There is only a few suttas that describe a path via Nirodha Samapatti because these suttas are probably validating this path, despite is non-necessity.
I can only refer you back to the videos and the explanations put forth there. I think it's laid out quite clearly and not much room for flights of fancy.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests