Right Speech: Getting Personal

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

I can see how the following comment(s) might reasonably be taken personally by someone else.

(1) "I disagree with you."
2
3%
(2) "You are incorrect."
6
8%
(3) "How could a person with the qualities you advocate ever take the position you hold to be true?"
6
8%
(4) "Here is the source of your confusion." (When you do not believe you are confused.)
7
9%
(5) "... backing away slowly ..." (followed by eye-roll emoji)
13
17%
(6) "You are too pig-headed to listen."
14
18%
(7) A post pointing out "your increasingly hysterical comments."
10
13%
(8) "You are a solipsist."
7
9%
(9) "That is your own idiosyncratic view, but the Buddha teaches ..."
7
9%
(10) "I can see how my comment may have offended you."
4
5%
 
Total votes: 76

binocular
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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:51 pm

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:38 am
Besides, do you think Bhante Dhammanando has said anything unwise? I like the comment, because a good slap on the face can wake us all up. I don't see the issue.
I exempt myself from the instruction.
I do _not_ want to be that someone else at whose expense someone indulges in their hauteur and prissiness!
I exempt myself from the venerable's instruction. I'm sure many others do so too.

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DNS
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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:03 pm

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:36 am
Are you referring to the post about urinating on the founder of a major world religion? I don't see why that should remain visible here on a forum devoted to discussion of Dhamma, but it's your call, not mine.
Where is that post? I have done a google site search for it and can't find it. Was it even ever here at all? I can't find in cache of any search. Please post a link to that post.

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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:25 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:03 pm
Where is that post? I have done a google site search for it and can't find it. Was it even ever here at all? I can't find in cache of any search. Please post a link to that post.
viewtopic.php?t=4713#p72249
and quoted in subsequent posts.

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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:32 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:25 pm
DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:03 pm
Where is that post? I have done a google site search for it and can't find it. Was it even ever here at all? I can't find in cache of any search. Please post a link to that post.
viewtopic.php?t=4713#p72249
and quoted in subsequent posts.
Thanks, those have been removed.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by Goofaholix » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:51 pm

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:31 am
[Actually it's not 17% of respondents. There are 10 comments, and each is allocated a percentage of the total vote. The total percent is 100%. If a comment gets 17%, then that indicates it is more commonly viewed as a comment which could reasonably be taken personally. It does not mean 17% of respondents think the comment is "personal."
Unless you know something about the inner workings of the poll that is not shown on screen it seems pretty clear that 15 out of 85 people think that "You are too pig-headed to listen." is a comment that might reasonably be taken personally by someone else.

As this comment is clearly personal and quite offensive I think it's reasonable conclude that most of the other 83% of respondents just don't really care for your poll or the drama surrounding it.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Nicolas
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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by Nicolas » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:04 pm

The poll allows for multiple choices. I myself ticked every option except #1 and #10, but I am not eight people.
My guess would be that "You are too pig-headed to listen." was probably ticked by most voters.
If that is the case, then one can expect that about 15 different users participated in the poll, so essentially, I would think that the percentages would be closer to the following (where I used 16 users for more round numbers):
12.5% for option #1
43.75% for option #2
43.75% for option #3
50% for option #4
87.5% for option #5
93.75% for option #6
68.75% for option #7
50% for option #8
50% for option #9
31.25% for option #10
(I may of course be wrong in my initial guess.)


Otherwise, regarding this topic, I encourage not adding any fuel to any fire:
Kinti Sutta (MN 103) wrote: While you are training in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, some bhikkhu might commit an offence or a transgression.

Now, bhikkhus, you should not hurry to reprove him; rather, the person should be examined thus:
[...]
‘I shall be troubled and the other person will be hurt; for the other person is given to anger and resentment, and he is firmly attached to his view and he relinquishes with difficulty; and I cannot make that person emerge from the unwholesome and establish him in the wholesome.’ One should not underrate equanimity towards such a person.

While you are training in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, there might arise mutual verbal friction, insolence in views, mental annoyance, bitterness, and dejection. Then whichever bhikkhu you think is the most reasonable of those who side together on the one part should be approached and addressed thus: ‘While we were training in concord, friend, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, there arose mutual verbal friction, insolence in views, mental annoyance, bitterness, and dejection. If the Recluse knew, would he censure that?’ Answering rightly, the bhikkhu would answer thus: ‘[...] If the Recluse knew, he would censure that.

‘But, friend, without abandoning that thing, can one realise Nibbāna?’ Answering rightly, the bhikkhu would answer thus: ‘Friend, without abandoning that thing, one cannot realise Nibbāna.’

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Goofaholix
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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by Goofaholix » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:02 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:04 pm
(I may of course be wrong in my initial guess.)
I see now, 85 votes means 85 ticks not 85 people. So there is no way of knowing how many people left checkboxes unticked, though I guess we could assume 18 people voted and 100% ticked the most offensive one, even so 18 people is a measure of disinterest I think.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:58 am
None of that is reason though for such realms of discussion to be in any way off-limits, especially when it is behaviours, attitude, speech etc. which need to be discussed... and sometimes they do.
I don't disagree. I think it's a question of where to draw the line.

When it comes to comments which address a person's personal characteristics or state of mind rather than their behavior or speech, the discussion is more likely to stray into playing the person, not the ball. When it comes to discussing "attitudes," that seems lose to the line. Attitudes can be misunderstood, as one's attitude is part of one's personal characteristics/state of mind.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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L.N.
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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:44 am

Goofaholix wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:51 pm
Unless you know something about the inner workings of the poll that is not shown on screen it seems pretty clear that 15 out of 85 people think that "You are too pig-headed to listen." is a comment that might reasonably be taken personally by someone else.
I may be wrong, but I think the "total number of votes" is not the same as the number of people who participated. For example, I believe I cast 4 or 5 votes. I estimate that perhaps 20 or so people have participated, but I don't think the poll lets us see how many people have participated, just how many total votes have been cast.
As this comment is clearly personal and quite offensive I think it's reasonable conclude that most of the other 83% of respondents just don't really care for your poll or the drama surrounding it.
I personally don't care for the drama that has surrounded it. The poll is intended to illustrate how various different comments may reasonably be taken personally. The ones with the highest number of votes probably have been selected by a majority of individuals who have cast votes. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can clarify.

Even so, if people don't care for "my" poll, as you put it, that's their business. This is a Topic intended for individuals who are interested in discussing this perspective regarding Right Speech, in the context of Dhamma discussion.
Goofaholix wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:02 pm
... even so 18 people is a measure of disinterest I think.
Members may have been turned off by the adversarial nature of the discussion. It's fine if people are not interested. The Topic is for those who are interested, and not every Topic will be of interest to everyone.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by binocular » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:08 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:44 am
The poll is intended to illustrate how various different comments may reasonably be taken personally.
The poll is statistically irrelevant.

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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:30 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:08 am
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:44 am
The poll is intended to illustrate how various different comments may reasonably be taken personally.
The poll is statistically irrelevant.
Correct. In fact there are fewer votes now than there were earlier, as people can change their votes at any time. All the poll does is illustrate how serious different comments might reasonably be taken personally.

This Topic is of very little interest on this forum, which is fine.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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L.N.
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Re: Right Speech: Getting Personal

Post by L.N. » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:54 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:07 am
You do realize, though, that people have reported your posts for repeated personal attack?
Circling back on this, I believe you have asserted a false statement here. I specifically asked a moderator whether I had been the subject of such reporting, and the moderator did not confirm your allegations. Maybe the moderator has never had time to check. But even if such reports have been made, I believe they were unsubstantiated, as I have not been contacted by the Team regarding such alleged reports.

As stated, the Topic is the underlying risk of making personalized comments, namely, playing the person, not the ball.

Related topic in Study Group.
Related topic in Sila.
Another related topic in Sila.
Further related topic in Sila.

It may be that nobody is interested in discussing these perspectives on Right Speech. If so, that is fine.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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