Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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L.N.
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:13 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:51 am
Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:56 am
By the way, it has come to my attention that the OP of this topic has been altered without notice to me by someone here at DW. I have not done a word-for-word comparison, so I don't know the extent of the changes to the OP. I may have the original on file somewhere for comparison.
I have looked at the log and I can see an edit has been undertaken. I will get the moderator in question to PM you, explaining what was done and why.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thank you, the explanation makes sense to me.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 pm

Whether speech is Right or moral or appropriate is a matter of judgement. Why don't each of us just make our judgements, and let each other do the same. What someone says about someone else's religion is a matter between them, not a matter for the forum police, or the law or suchlike. It's just words. The texts distinguish between bodily kamma and verbal kamma.

Ascetics and disputes over views and all that.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

binocular
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:41 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:29 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:49 am
The Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy - Perpetrated by those who are new to Dhamma Wheel, or any other buddhist forum, and get disapointed that other members don't behave like the Buddha.
I don't understand how what you brought is a response to what I posted.
I think you expect (although probably in perfectly innocent goodwill) too much pure Buddhism from the posters at this forum, and that as such, you committed the "Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy".

- - -
Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 pm
Ascetics and disputes over views and all that.
With the emphasis on "ascetics" (and contemplatives).
:tongue:

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:44 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am
I doubt anything can alleviate that angst [edit: or moral and emotional panic], because that angst seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.
Which angst are you talking about here?
The angst that seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:00 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:44 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am
I doubt anything can alleviate that angst [edit: or moral and emotional panic], because that angst seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.
Which angst are you talking about here?
The angst that seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.
Hi Bionocular
But where is this manifesting in this forum in relation to the topic of Islam? Could you perhaps show some examples? Perhaps this "angst" is something of a projection or a misinterpretation.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mkoll » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:12 pm

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:29 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am
I don't understand how what you brought is a response to what I posted.
I think you expect (although probably in perfectly innocent goodwill) too much pure Buddhism from the posters at this forum, and that as such, you committed the "Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy".
I'd also add that LN is falling prey to the general online forum (or workplace, at that) fallacy of "not understanding a culture yet trying to change it, (most often found in newer, often younger, members with a penchant for idealism)"

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of aspects of this forum that would be nice to experience differently or not at all. But I've been here long enough to know it is futile to fight against certain aspects of the forum's culture if I cared enough to do so, given its...supports.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:46 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:00 pm
But where is this manifesting in this forum in relation to the topic of Islam? Could you perhaps show some examples? Perhaps this "angst" is something of a projection or a misinterpretation.
That someone has unresolved existential angst, existential questions and fears for the most part cannot be directly observed when people are discussing the topic of Islam (or climate change etc.). It is extremely rare to see someone say in open forums something like, "I am deeply worried about whether life can have any meaning or whether happiness can be found at all in this world, given that an Islamic terrorist attack could happen anytime, anywhere."

But when one talks to a person for a long time, observes what other questions and fears they raise or have, patterns emerge. And it has been my observation that people who are openly very critical of some religion or political party etc. tend to have unresolved existential angst.

This, however, is not to say that everyone who is openly very critical of some religion or political party etc. has unresolved existential angst. Some do, some don't.

It is possible to test people for this (although it's not very kind to do so, because it will possibly upset them). One can do this when a discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere by making a comment like that Hare Krishna devotee did, and observe people's reactions. This is where the unresolved existential angst will surface, if it's there.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:59 pm

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:29 am
m0rl0ck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 pm
Patriarchal theism is imo the greatest evil ever to befall human kind. In all its forms its ridiculous evil and dangerous and historically has been a major motivator and rationalization mechanism for every possible crime and perversion that humans perpetrate on each other.
This is false.
However, if one form of its practice is being held up for especial ridicule, i agree thats unfair. For the good of the human race, patriarchal theism in all its forms should be eradicated. So i think we need to disparage all forms of patriarchal theism as the selfish, brutal, judgmental, relics of prehistory they are and not just pick on one flavor to crap on.
This is false.
Responding to a statement with "this is false" doesn't say anything, no point of any kind. Anyone could write "this is false" about any statement, but doesn't make any case. It's not against the terms of service, but simply makes no point. A good argument would explain why you believe it is false.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:44 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:12 am
Also, I think many Americans & Westerners are in total denial of their own foreign policy & are unable to even consider it is the US govt that has basically nurtured every branch of modern terrorism under the banner of Islam.
I live in Europe. Right in the small town where I live (and in may other places here), there are still historical vantage points on which fires were lit to alert the local population when the Turks invaded the land.
When I think of Islam and Islamic invasion, I actually intuitively think of the historical invasions of the Turks in Europe.
Current Islamism seems to me to be a continuation of the historical Islamic invasions. That the current version is or could be funded and nurtured by the US (and other nominally non-Muslim states?) doesn't make much of a difference, other than in method, but not in motivation.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:52 am
Many quote from the Koran to criticize Islam however I personally have never read any of the usual quotes quoted within the historical context. Its similar to Buddhists who imagine things when reading a single word translated in a sutta but do not examine the context of that word.
There are also scholarly and popular disputes over what the right historical context is ... IOW, the matter appears to be intractable. And as such, a more general, philosophical problem-solving approach may be more feasible, such as the one with trying to directly resolve one's existential angst.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:14 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:14 am
I really agree with this. I don't mind people discussing what they think are bad things about other religions but the tone of the discussion seem to me to be bashing and uncaring about the people who are muslims and who do not ascribe to those negative things which people see. The tone of the discussion often does not reflect the attitudes of a Person of Integrity:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Also seems like a lack of compassion and equanimity.

Can it be said that for a lot of buddhist when the going gets tough they forget.....
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:49 am
The Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy - Perpetrated by those who are new to Dhamma Wheel, or any other buddhist forum, and get disapointed that other members don't behave like the Buddha.
I think you expect (although probably in perfectly innocent goodwill) too much pure Buddhism from the posters at this forum, and that as such, you committed the "Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy".
To think that I have great expectations for the posters here is laughable. :rofl:

To think that having integrety, equanamity, or compassion is expecting too much of people and to ascribe those things to only reasonably manifest in the buddha is sad.... :sad:
....and even a bit silly. :rolleye:
chownah

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:43 am

Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:14 am
To think that I have great expectations for the posters here is laughable. :rofl:
Indeed. For what are expectations but a means by which to set oneself up for disappointment?

Expecting or demanding others to think like us, be like us, or to adhere to our private standards and proclivities is a futile exercise in control.

If people took concepts like "diversity" and "tolerance" more seriously, there'd be much less complaining about the differences in people, and the differences in their views, perspectives and priorities.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:09 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:59 pm
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:29 am
m0rl0ck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 pm
Patriarchal theism is imo the greatest evil ever to befall human kind. In all its forms its ridiculous evil and dangerous and historically has been a major motivator and rationalization mechanism for every possible crime and perversion that humans perpetrate on each other.
This is false.
However, if one form of its practice is being held up for especial ridicule, i agree thats unfair. For the good of the human race, patriarchal theism in all its forms should be eradicated. So i think we need to disparage all forms of patriarchal theism as the selfish, brutal, judgmental, relics of prehistory they are and not just pick on one flavor to crap on.
This is false.
Responding to a statement with "this is false" doesn't say anything, no point of any kind. Anyone could write "this is false" about any statement, but doesn't make any case. It's not against the terms of service, but simply makes no point. A good argument would explain why you believe it is false.
I think it's self-evident but the first is false because "patriarchal theism" (such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.) is not in "all its forms ...ridiculous evil and dangerous." This is a general disparagement of other faiths. Morlock is entitled to his or her opinion. I'm surprised anybody would think this is true, or in any way supported by facts. Positive and non-evil, non-dangerous forms include the myriad local community churches which do much good. These are not all evil and dangerous. No factual support was provided for the proposition that such faiths are ridiculous evil and dangerous in all forms. As such, the state proposition doesn't make a case. The stated proposition is not a good argument and is not deserving of a rigorous rebuttal any more than any other nonsensical disparagement of other traditions.

As to the second proposition, it is simply frightening and sounds like what the Nazi's said about the Jews. I am not calling Morlock a Nazi, but talk of "eradicating" religious groups is not worthy of a "good argument" in opposition. Certain self-identified Buddhists are trying to eradicate the Rohingya Muslims. The argument that some tradition should be "eradicated" is fairly horrible, especially on a forum devoted to discussion of the Dhamma.

I realize others may disagree, and statements which call for the eradication of other faiths are not in violation of TOS on this forum. But such statements are volatile and, I hope, do not reflect the values of most participants here. I may be wrong, based on what I am witnessing here.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by m0rl0ck » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:34 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:09 am

As to the second proposition, it is simply frightening and sounds like what the Nazi's said about the Jews. I am not calling Morlock a Nazi, but talk of "eradicating" religious groups is not worthy of a "good argument" in opposition. Certain self-identified Buddhists are trying to eradicate the Rohingya Muslims. The argument that some tradition should be "eradicated" is fairly horrible, especially on a forum devoted to discussion of the Dhamma.

I realize others may disagree, and statements which call for the eradication of other faiths are not in violation of TOS on this forum. But such statements are volatile and, I hope, do not reflect the values of most participants here. I may be wrong, based on what I am witnessing here.
Im not in favor of eradicating any religious groups, merely the ideology. As far as brutal, evil and dangerous, are you aware of any history at all? Do you read the news?

The god that the xians, jews, and moslems worship has apparently looked on in approval as his children and representatives on earth committed every evil from genocide to female genital mutilation.

The most notable aspect of the ideology of the prankster male warrior god that the so called children of the book worship is exclusion, that is that some are "of god" and the others are the chaff, the subhumans and the expendable.

This evil patriarchal god of war and hate evolved with the rise of agriculture. Agriculture gives groups that practice it a food surplus and that leads to a people surplus so you need more land to plant. Yahweh or Allah or the lord of creation or what ever you want to call it, is merely a convenient cultural mechanism for dehumanizing the tribe on the other side of the hill so they can be slaughtered or enslaved and robbed of their land.

Humans have a natural empathy for each other, if you want them to hate enough to kill each other on a mass scale you need religion, specifically a violent exclusionary religion like those that sprang from the middle eastern nomadic warrior god of abraham. More inclusionary religions like buddhism just wont do the trick :)

Again i want to make clear that i was talking about the ideology, if you pander to hateful theist ideology, if you give it equal time, if you pretend that its just as good as any other, you are karmically liable for the consequences. Its time that this evil was more widely recognized for what it is. The planet has become too small to tolerate the insanity of patriarchal theism. Now we are all the people on the other side of the hill.
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:43 am
Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:14 am
To think that I have great expectations for the posters here is laughable. :rofl:
Indeed. For what are expectations but a means by which to set oneself up for disappointment?

Expecting or demanding others to think like us, be like us, or to adhere to our private standards and proclivities is a futile exercise in control.

If people took concepts like "diversity" and "tolerance" more seriously, there'd be much less complaining about the differences in people, and the differences in their views, perspectives and priorities.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thank you for explaining my meaning in a way better than what I would have done.
chownah

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:34 am
Im not in favor of eradicating any religious groups, merely the ideology. As far as brutal, evil and dangerous, are you aware of any history at all? Do you read the news?
Yes. For example, I read about this: In Myanmar, The Persecution Of the Muslim Minority, The Rohingya, Continues
The god that the xians, jews, and moslems worship has apparently looked on in approval as his children and representatives on earth committed every evil from genocide to female genital mutilation.
Factual basis for this assertion? I don't see how this is any different from how human beings act in general, even some self-identified Buddhists. Human nature seems to result in atrocities. What else do you expect?
The most notable aspect of the ideology of the prankster male warrior god that the so called children of the book worship is exclusion, that is that some are "of god" and the others are the chaff, the subhumans and the expendable.

This evil patriarchal god of war and hate evolved with the rise of agriculture. Agriculture gives groups that practice it a food surplus and that leads to a people surplus so you need more land to plant. Yahweh or Allah or the lord of creation or what ever you want to call it, is merely a convenient cultural mechanism for dehumanizing the tribe on the other side of the hill so they can be slaughtered or enslaved and robbed of their land.

Humans have a natural empathy for each other, if you want them to hate enough to kill each other on a mass scale you need religion, specifically a violent exclusionary religion like those that sprang from the middle eastern nomadic warrior god of abraham. More inclusionary religions like buddhism just wont do the trick :)
I suppose it depends on the individual Buddhist. Again, your blanket condemnation of other traditions is on its face an overgeneralization. I know DNS would prefer a more meaningful argument, but your position is on its face over-the-top silly.
Again i want to make clear that i was talking about the ideology, if you pander to hateful theist ideology, if you give it equal time, if you pretend that its just as good as any other, you are karmically liable for the consequences.
Huh? I don't think that's how kamma works.
Its time that this evil was more widely recognized for what it is. The planet has become too small to tolerate the insanity of patriarchal theism. Now we are all the people on the other side of the hill.
There are avenues for this type of condemnation of other traditions. I just don't think a Buddhist forum should be one of them. But again, it's not my call. You are welcome to your views. I wish we could stick to Dhamma discussions instead of bashing other traditions.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:24 am

Greetings,
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 am
I wish we could stick to Dhamma discussions instead of bashing other traditions.
Well, no one is stopping you.

As for "we", that's for all the other individuals who frequent this forum to decide what they wish to discuss, isn't it?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:43 am
Indeed. For what are expectations but a means by which to set oneself up for disappointment?

Expecting or demanding others to think like us, be like us, or to adhere to our private standards and proclivities is a futile exercise in control.
This is a good point. Still, there is a time and place for not remaining silent.
If people took concepts like "diversity" and "tolerance" more seriously, there'd be much less complaining about the differences in people, and the differences in their views, perspectives and priorities.
Taking a position against divisive and hurtful speech on a discussion board devoted to Dhamma is not really about "complaining." It is about having a conversation. I suppose anybody who disagrees with anything could be characterized as "complaining," but a request for greater civility and a cleaner Dhamma discussion is not merely a complaint. It is an invitation to discussion and an opportunity to examine if our words and actions are skillful.

I probably am taking this forum a little too seriously. There can't be that many people who read this stuff, so maybe there's not so much harm if this forum adds a minuscule amount to the growing negative perception of Buddhism. It would be better if the discussions here were more focused on Dhamma and less on disparaging other faiths and one another personally. This is not intended as a "complaint." It is a point of view. It also is not intended as an effort to "control." It is an effort to discuss.

We all have expectations. It's human nature, and part of what kept us alive on the savannah tens of thousands of years ago. I agree that here, it is time to lower expectations.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:32 am

Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:29 am
We all have expectations. It's human nature, and part of what kept us alive on the savannah tens of thousands of years ago. I agree that here, it is time to lower expectations.
Recalibration of expectations complete.

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:32 am
Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:29 am
We all have expectations. It's human nature, and part of what kept us alive on the savannah tens of thousands of years ago. I agree that here, it is time to lower expectations.
Recalibration of expectations complete.

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thanks.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by m0rl0ck » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:45 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 am
but your position is on its face over-the-top silly.

Im fine with you thinking that, just trying to plant a seed. I realize that my position is not going to win me any popularity contests :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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