Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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L.N.
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:51 am
Dhamma is the practise of non-violence & mental cleansing of hatred. The mind of Dhamma is vast. Yet it does to necessarily agree with the tenets of other religions. For example, the Buddha made it clear he was not the enemy of the Brahmans however the Buddha did disagree with some Brahmanistic teachings, which he refuted.
That's a far cry from suggesting Muhammad should be urinated upon and other such horrible things which have been said here by some Buddhists about other faiths.

By the way, it has come to my attention that the OP of this topic has been altered without notice to me by someone here at DW. I have not done a word-for-word comparison, so I don't know the extent of the changes to the OP. I may have the original on file somewhere for comparison.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:39 am

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:56 am
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:51 am
Dhamma is the practise of non-violence & mental cleansing of hatred. The mind of Dhamma is vast. Yet it does to necessarily agree with the tenets of other religions. For example, the Buddha made it clear he was not the enemy of the Brahmans however the Buddha did disagree with some Brahmanistic teachings, which he refuted.
That's a far cry from suggesting Muhammad should be urinated upon and other such horrible things which have been said here by some Buddhists about other faiths.

By the way, it has come to my attention that the OP of this topic has been altered without notice to me by someone here at DW. I have not done a word-for-word comparison, so I don't know the extent of the changes to the OP. I may have the original on file somewhere for comparison.
That is horrible, if indeed that is true, that your OP has been altered without your consent and/or notification.

That being said, this seems to be, the above message, an instance of decrying someone for not being perceived as enthusiastic enough for a cause. DooDoot has spoken favourably in your cause... was it not extremely enough?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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retrofuturist
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:50 am

Greetings Binocular,
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am
Personally, I'm not inclined to prohibit any subject of conversation, so long as behaviour of those involved in the conversation adheres to the parameters of the Terms of Service. But nonetheless, as this topic demonstrates, people complain when others dare to mention Islam in anything less than a flattering light, so in my official capacity I do feel somewhat obliged to poke around and see if there's something that could be done to alleviate the angst. Hence the questions...
I doubt anything can alleviate that angst [edit: or moral and emotional panic], because that angst seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.

For a person who hasn't resolved those questions and fears, anything that triggers them will be problematic. Whether it's a discussion of religion, or crime rates, or climate change, etc.

And Abrahamic religions (with their religious elitism and threat of eternal damnation) in general address or provoke many people's worst fears and questions. Currently, it's Islam, Muslims, and the discussion about them that is so provoking for many such people (while if such a person were to live in central Europe in the 15th, 16th, 17th century, that would be Catholicism, for example).

So I think this whole thing about disparaging other religions isn't really about those other religions or about disparaging them, but about having unresolved existential questions and fears, and feeling incapable of doing something about them, or resenting to do something about them.


Once in a discussion of a socio-political topic in a general secular forum, a Hare Krishna devotee made an interesting comment. Namely, some posters were very much upset over some issue, and after some discussion of it, the devotee said something like, "Apparently, you haven't come to terms with living in a dangerous world." The reaction of the other posters was telling -- mostly amounting to "Who are you to say such things?!" and getting outraged. I think he made a vital point, though.
Excellent post. Much appreciated. Great little story at the end too...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:51 am

Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:56 am
By the way, it has come to my attention that the OP of this topic has been altered without notice to me by someone here at DW. I have not done a word-for-word comparison, so I don't know the extent of the changes to the OP. I may have the original on file somewhere for comparison.
I have looked at the log and I can see an edit has been undertaken. I will get the moderator in question to PM you, explaining what was done and why.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:29 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:14 am
I really agree with this. I don't mind people discussing what they think are bad things about other religions but the tone of the discussion seem to me to be bashing and uncaring about the people who are muslims and who do not ascribe to those negative things which people see. The tone of the discussion often does not reflect the attitudes of a Person of Integrity:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Also seems like a lack of compassion and equanimity.

Can it be said that for a lot of buddhist when the going gets tough they forget.....
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:49 am
The Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy - Perpetrated by those who are new to Dhamma Wheel, or any other buddhist forum, and get disapointed that other members don't behave like the Buddha.
:guns:
I don't understand how what you brought is a response to what I posted.
chownah

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Mr Man
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am

I doubt anything can alleviate that angst [edit: or moral and emotional panic], because that angst seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.
Hi binocular
Which angst are you talking about here?

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:08 am

Greetings Mr.Man,
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 am
Which angst are you talking about here?
I took it to be manifestations of phenomena akin to the hindrances of doubt, restlessness & remorse, but I too look forward to hearing more from binocular about precisely what was meant.
SN 46.55 wrote:If there is a pot of water which is turbid, stirred up and muddy, and this pot is put into a dark place, then a man with a normal faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized.

...

If there is water in a pot, stirred by the wind, agitated, swaying and producing waves, a man with a normal faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by restlessness and remorse, overpowered by restlessness and remorse, one cannot properly see the escape from restlessness and remorse that have arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:08 am
Greetings Mr.Man,
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 am
Which angst are you talking about here?
I took it to be manifestations of phenomena akin to the hindrances of doubt, restlessness & remorse
Binocular was quoting from you.
retrofuturist wrote:
but I too look forward to hearing more from binocular about precisely what was meant.

Yes

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by alfa » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:01 pm

Honest question.

Let's say your criticism of Islam is fair and objective.

Still, what exactly do people hope to accomplish by 'criticizing' Islam or any other religion? :shrug:

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:31 pm

alfa wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:01 pm
Still, what exactly do people hope to accomplish by 'criticizing' Islam or any other religion?
One of the goals of criticism: To maintain at least a psychological distance from that which is being criticized.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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L.N.
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:13 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:51 am
Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:56 am
By the way, it has come to my attention that the OP of this topic has been altered without notice to me by someone here at DW. I have not done a word-for-word comparison, so I don't know the extent of the changes to the OP. I may have the original on file somewhere for comparison.
I have looked at the log and I can see an edit has been undertaken. I will get the moderator in question to PM you, explaining what was done and why.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thank you, the explanation makes sense to me.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 pm

Whether speech is Right or moral or appropriate is a matter of judgement. Why don't each of us just make our judgements, and let each other do the same. What someone says about someone else's religion is a matter between them, not a matter for the forum police, or the law or suchlike. It's just words. The texts distinguish between bodily kamma and verbal kamma.

Ascetics and disputes over views and all that.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

binocular
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:41 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:29 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:49 am
The Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy - Perpetrated by those who are new to Dhamma Wheel, or any other buddhist forum, and get disapointed that other members don't behave like the Buddha.
I don't understand how what you brought is a response to what I posted.
I think you expect (although probably in perfectly innocent goodwill) too much pure Buddhism from the posters at this forum, and that as such, you committed the "Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy".

- - -
Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 pm
Ascetics and disputes over views and all that.
With the emphasis on "ascetics" (and contemplatives).
:tongue:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:44 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am
I doubt anything can alleviate that angst [edit: or moral and emotional panic], because that angst seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.
Which angst are you talking about here?
The angst that seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Mr Man
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:00 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:44 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am
I doubt anything can alleviate that angst [edit: or moral and emotional panic], because that angst seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.
Which angst are you talking about here?
The angst that seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.
Hi Bionocular
But where is this manifesting in this forum in relation to the topic of Islam? Could you perhaps show some examples? Perhaps this "angst" is something of a projection or a misinterpretation.

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