Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Locked
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11891
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DNS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:20 pm

I believe DooDoot has a pretty good balanced position on all of this. In his post here:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=30614&start=60#p444973

He demonstrates things Islam has been accused of and how much of it is from cultural practices, not Islam. Another cultural action which is done in some Arab countries is honor killings. This is also not a part of Islam, but rather a cultural thing. The Druze in Israel and other nations (not part of Islam) have also done honor killings. And then in the quoted part here he mentions how we can learn from the wholesome and unwholesome aspects of Islam.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:38 am
The Buddha praised vast learning. I think expecting non-critique of Islam is non-Buddhist. I think Buddhists should learn about the wholesome & unwholesome aspects of Islam. I was only now surprised to learn the Bahai were heavily political & involved in assassinations; similar to Nelson Mandela, the Irgun Zionists & other terrorists that later become mainstream leaders:
So I repeat, it is okay to study other religions, critique them, do a comparative analysis, but without vitriol, hyperbole. And one could do this by focusing on the doctrines, the scripture quotes, not the cultural aspects.

User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:02 pm

For instance female genital mutilation is not Islamic, it is cultural, it originated in Africa and is still principally an African phenomenon, both Islamic and Christian communities in Africa practice female genital mutilation, it almost unheard of in most middle Eastern countries, although I have heard of it being practiced in Indonesia, but not universally.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by m0rl0ck » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:11 am
I am troubled by the proliferation of anti-Muslim Topics and posts here. I have to assume the majority of Members also disagree with such posts. We need to take a stand against this, because it damages the perception of Buddhism, especially at a time when Buddhists are persecuting Rohingya Muslims. What do we think we are gaining by showing contempt for other faiths?
Patriarchal theism is imo the greatest evil ever to befall human kind. In all its forms its ridiculous evil and dangerous and historically has been a major motivator and rationalization mechanism for every possible crime and perversion that humans perpetrate on each other.

However, if one form of its practice is being held up for especial ridicule, i agree thats unfair. For the good of the human race, patriarchal theism in all its forms should be eradicated. So i think we need to disparage all forms of patriarchal theism as the selfish, brutal, judgmental, relics of prehistory they are and not just pick on one flavor to crap on.

If you are looking for a place that is approving and welcoming to theist views and your particular sect especially, maybe you should be looking for sympathy somewhere other than a buddhst forum.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11891
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DNS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:22 pm

This might be one way (my cursory attempt) to present a balanced approach, by focusing on the scriptures of a religion as has been done by some here. First a negative aspect and then a positive, wholesome aspect:

The Sword Verse in the Qur'an:
فَإِذَا انْسَلَخَ الْأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ
فَاقْتُلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدْتُمُوهُمْ
وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُوا لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ
فَإِنْ تَابُوا وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ
فَخَلُّوا سَبِيلَهُمْ
إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ
Qur'an 9.5 wrote:"Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"
This passage appears to advocate killing non-believers unless they convert to Islam. From a Buddhist (and humanitarian) perspective this is in opposition to the First Precept and basic freedom of religion.

And for some wholesome verses, Golden Rule type passages:
Woe to those . . . who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure, but when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due.”

The Qur'an commends "those who show their affection to such as came to them for refuge and entertain no desire in their hearts for things given to the (latter), but give them preference over themselves."

“None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.” "Seek for mankind that of which you are desirous for yourself, that you may be a believer; treat well as a neighbor the one who lives near you, that you may be a Muslim [one who submits to God]."

“That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind.”

"The most righteous of men is the one who is glad that men should have what is pleasing to himself, and who dislikes for them what is for him disagreeable." (Qur'an, Surah 59, 83)
And then similar things could easily be done with other religions too, as noted in other posts from the Bible and other scriptures.

User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Modus.Ponens » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:41 pm

DNS wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:22 pm
This might be one way (my cursory attempt) to present a balanced approach, by focusing on the scriptures of a religion as has been done by some here. First a negative aspect and then a positive, wholesome aspect:

The Sword Verse in the Qur'an:
فَإِذَا انْسَلَخَ الْأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ
فَاقْتُلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدْتُمُوهُمْ
وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُوا لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ
فَإِنْ تَابُوا وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ
فَخَلُّوا سَبِيلَهُمْ
إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ
Qur'an 9.5 wrote:"Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"
This passage appears to advocate killing non-believers unless they convert to Islam. From a Buddhist (and humanitarian) perspective this is in opposition to the First Precept and basic freedom of religion.

And for some wholesome verses, Golden Rule type passages:
Woe to those . . . who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure, but when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due.”

The Qur'an commends "those who show their affection to such as came to them for refuge and entertain no desire in their hearts for things given to the (latter), but give them preference over themselves."

“None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.” "Seek for mankind that of which you are desirous for yourself, that you may be a believer; treat well as a neighbor the one who lives near you, that you may be a Muslim [one who submits to God]."

“That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind.”

"The most righteous of men is the one who is glad that men should have what is pleasing to himself, and who dislikes for them what is for him disagreeable." (Qur'an, Surah 59, 83)
And then similar things could easily be done with other religions too, as noted in other posts from the Bible and other scriptures.
Hello, David.

I am preparing a post debunking the misrepresentations being spread about islam by DooDoot and others. Please keep this open, because the points they have raised do not stand to scrutiny.

Añjali
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

chownah
Posts: 7581
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:14 am

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:25 pm
There have been a lot of ugly posts about Islam and other faiths.
I really agree with this. I don't mind people discussing what they think are bad things about other religions but the tone of the discussion seem to me to be bashing and uncaring about the people who are muslims and who do not ascribe to those negative things which people see. The tone of the discussion often does not reflect the attitudes of a Person of Integrity:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Also seems like a lack of compassion and equanimity.
Can it be said that for a lot of buddhist when the going gets tough they forget......
chownah

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20152
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:40 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:14 am
I don't mind people discussing what they think are bad things about other religions but the tone of the discussion seem to me to be bashing and uncaring about the people who are muslims and who do not ascribe to those negative things which people see. The tone of the discussion often does not reflect the attitudes of a Person of Integrity:
I note that you address "tone" (in contrast to "content"?) in your comment.

Speaking from an administrative perspective, I was wondering whether there's anything you can think of which could and/or should be done from a moderation policy perspective to uplift the "tone" of such critiques, which have the potential to be interpreted by some as "bashing and uncaring"? Or is it solely the responsibility of the individual who is speaking to speak in a manner which they decide is Right? I gave some possible recommendations earlier for both "critics" and "critics of the critics" here which I felt could be effective when discussing Islam, but they were just general recommendations which people are free to adopt or ignore, as they see fit. Or is it that Islam is such an emotive "hot button" topic for some people in the 21st century that no level of critique, no matter what the tone, can possibly be tolerated by them?

(Others are welcome to respond too...)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:08 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:40 am
Or is it that Islam is such an emotive "hot button" topic for some people in the 21st century that no level of critique, no matter what the tone, can possibly be tolerated by them?
Yes. And even intellectuals can be among such people.

Some years back, I witnessed a discussion at a Buddhist forum where someone posted some passages from the Kuran that instruct killing non-believers. The moderator reprimanded the poster and said that posting such things was against the TOS on the grounds that it amounts to speaking badly of other religions.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20152
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am

Greetings Binocular,

Yes, I know the kind of mentality you mean. It does seem as if some elements of society (and thus, some elements of online forums) have granted Islam some kind of unparalleled "special privilege" afforded to no other ideology or worldview (including Buddhism itself), whereby it is held to be strictly beyond critique, such that any person who would dare to critique it, must be responded to with moral condemnation and associated epithets. To me it seems like a socially-curated Blasphemy Law for the 21st century, and I confess that I don't really understand it, nor why so many people acquiesce to such an arbitrary policing of thought and speech.

Personally, I'm not inclined to prohibit any subject of conversation of interest to Theravada Buddhists, so long as the behaviour of those involved in the conversation adheres to the parameters of the Terms of Service. But nonetheless, as this topic demonstrates, some people will complain when others dare to mention Islam in anything less than a flattering light, so in my official capacity I do feel somewhat obliged to poke around and see if there's something that could be done to alleviate the angst. Certain people make out that it's some kind of egregious calamity whenever the subject comes up and I'd like to know why, because I tire of people's moral and emotional panic.

Hence the questions... and hopefully some answers.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:14 am
I really agree with this. I don't mind people discussing what they think are bad things about other religions but the tone of the discussion seem to me to be bashing and uncaring about the people who are muslims and who do not ascribe to those negative things which people see. The tone of the discussion often does not reflect the attitudes of a Person of Integrity:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Also seems like a lack of compassion and equanimity.

Can it be said that for a lot of buddhist when the going gets tough they forget.....
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:49 am
The Buddhification of Dhamma Wheel members fallacy - Perpetrated by those who are new to Dhamma Wheel, or any other buddhist forum, and get disapointed that other members don't behave like the Buddha.
:guns:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am
Personally, I'm not inclined to prohibit any subject of conversation, so long as behaviour of those involved in the conversation adheres to the parameters of the Terms of Service. But nonetheless, as this topic demonstrates, people complain when others dare to mention Islam in anything less than a flattering light, so in my official capacity I do feel somewhat obliged to poke around and see if there's something that could be done to alleviate the angst. Hence the questions...
I doubt anything can alleviate that angst [edit: or moral and emotional panic], because that angst seems to be linked to people's most fundamental questions and fears about life, the meaning of life, justice, and other such fundamental issues.

For a person who hasn't resolved those questions and fears, anything that triggers them will be problematic. Whether it's a discussion of religion, or crime rates, or climate change, etc.

And Abrahamic religions (with their religious elitism and threat of eternal damnation) in general address or provoke many people's worst fears and questions. Currently, it's Islam, Muslims, and the discussion about them that is so provoking for many such people (while if such a person were to live in central Europe in the 15th, 16th, 17th century, that would be Catholicism, for example).

So I think this whole thing about disparaging other religions isn't really about those other religions or about disparaging them, but about having unresolved existential questions and fears, and feeling incapable of doing something about them, or resenting to do something about them.


Once in a discussion of a socio-political topic in a general secular forum, a Hare Krishna devotee made an interesting comment. Namely, some posters were very much upset over some issue, and after some discussion of it, the devotee said something like, "Apparently, you haven't come to terms with living in a dangerous world." The reaction of the other posters was telling -- mostly amounting to "Who are you to say such things?!" and getting outraged. I think he made a vital point, though.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:52 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:22 pm
The Sword Verse in the Qur'an:
فَإِذَا انْسَلَخَ الْأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ
فَاقْتُلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدْتُمُوهُمْ
وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُوا لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ
فَإِنْ تَابُوا وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ
فَخَلُّوا سَبِيلَهُمْ
إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ
Qur'an 9.5 wrote:"Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"
This passage appears to advocate killing non-believers unless they convert to Islam. From a Buddhist (and humanitarian) perspective this is in opposition to the First Precept and basic freedom of religion.
I think if the above is studied, it might be found "the idolaters" refer to a Meccan group at the Kaaba who were against the Muslims. The verse should be examined it is context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Verse
Qur’anic exegetes al-Baydawi and al-Alusi explain that it refers to those pagan Arabs who violated their peace treaties by waging war against the Muslims.
The above said, the verse is certainly contrary to any Buddhists principles of non-killing however the verse appears to fall within the ordinary sphere of social politics, as found in many religious & social texts, such as the Old Testament, Bhagavada Gita, Tao Te Ching, US Constitution, United Nations, Geneva Convention, etc, which provide grounds for war. The verses does not appear to be about forced conversions but about making peace with the Muslims.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:26 pm
The koran is the most respected scripture in islam, followed by the sahih al bukhari and the sahih muslim. I have quoted them to substantiate what I have said.
Many quote from the Koran to criticize Islam however I personally have never read any of the usual quotes quoted within the historical context. Its similar to Buddhists who imagine things when reading a single word translated in a sutta but do not examine the context of that word.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:16 am
Yes, I know the kind of mentality you mean. It does seem as if some elements of society (and thus, some elements of online forums) have granted Islam some kind of unparalleled "special privilege" afforded to no other ideology or worldview...
I disagree. There is one other ideology that is so sacred I can't even mention it.... :pig:
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am
And Abrahamic religions (with their religious elitism and threat of eternal damnation) in general address or provoke many people's worst fears and questions. Currently, it's Islam, Muslims, and the discussion about them that is so provoking for many such people (while if such a person were to live in central Europe in the 15th, 16th, 17th century, that would be Catholicism, for example).

So I think this whole thing about disparaging other religions isn't really about those other religions or about disparaging them, but about having unresolved existential questions and fears, and feeling incapable of doing something about them, or resenting to do something about them
It is difficult for me to disagree with this however I suppose as I have already posted and it might sound strange but Islam is probably the most tolerant of each of the three Abrahamic religions.

Also, I think many Americans & Westerners are in total denial of their own foreign policy & are unable to even consider it is the US govt that has basically nurtured every branch of modern terrorism under the banner of Islam.

Look what the Americans did in Iraq; the same as Vietnam.




User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:29 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:31 pm
Patriarchal theism is imo the greatest evil ever to befall human kind. In all its forms its ridiculous evil and dangerous and historically has been a major motivator and rationalization mechanism for every possible crime and perversion that humans perpetrate on each other.
This is false.
However, if one form of its practice is being held up for especial ridicule, i agree thats unfair. For the good of the human race, patriarchal theism in all its forms should be eradicated. So i think we need to disparage all forms of patriarchal theism as the selfish, brutal, judgmental, relics of prehistory they are and not just pick on one flavor to crap on.
This is false.
If you are looking for a place that is approving and welcoming to theist views and your particular sect especially, maybe you should be looking for sympathy somewhere other than a buddhst forum.
No, I am looking for an approach to other faiths which demonstrates the confidence in truth and respect for others embodied by Dhamma.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:51 am

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:29 am
No, I am looking for an approach to other faiths which demonstrates the confidence in truth and respect for others embodied by Dhamma.
Dhamma is the practise of non-violence & mental cleansing of hatred. The mind of Dhamma is vast. Yet it does to necessarily agree with the tenets of other religions. For example, the Buddha made it clear he was not the enemy of the Brahmans however the Buddha did disagree with some Brahmanistic teachings, which he refuted.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JadeRabbit and 59 guests