Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:25 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:49 pm
As for persectution that depends on the way you understand the word persecution. Jews have to pay poll tax (Jizya) for their protection - and I consider this as a form of persecution. Muhammad he himself made laws (even though according to Islam they are from God) which gave Muslims more privilage and opportunity over non-muslims (both people of the book as well as pagans).
Jizya is tax. The Muslims tried to create a civil society, with charity, which requires tax revenue. Charity is a significant theme in the Koran. I already posted many Jews become enormously wealthy under Islam (because they were able to particularly dominate the banking industry); therefore the tax was obviously not an issue to them.

Personally, I do not have any love affair with Islam, just as I don't have a love affair with Judaism (which Christianity has attached itself to also). These are worldly mundane political-law systems; which include worldly militarism. However, ordinary society needs law & order; just as the USA has police, a court system & military. Islam was an attempt at this. But if you starting measuring Muhammad against Buddha, this is unfair, because they are different in their roles.

When the ordinary person is being attacked, Muhammad says to defend yourself & Buddha says to practise non-violence. The ordinary person obviously wants to defend them self. Imagine if the Buddha was walking around during the Holocaust. Buddha would just say: "Let it go; its not yours; not-self".

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:39 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:03 am
Except that Dharmasherab's quotes are full of lies and misinformation about Islam.
We have provided original trusted canonical sources to back up our solid statements. I'm sorry, but it's time for you guys to provide some substance to your arguments.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

Caodemarte
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:50 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:39 am
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:03 am
Except that Dharmasherab's quotes are full of lies and misinformation about Islam.
We have provided original trusted canonical sources to back up our solid statements. I'm sorry, but it's time for you guys to provide some substance to your arguments.
No, you have not. Reliable sources, what you call canonical, have been cited and you ignore them. Such displays of bigotry and bile are not worthy of respect.

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L.N.
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:05 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:33 pm
But just because NeoNazis disagree with the statements such as the Holocaust was carried out by Hitler are you saying that this is slander and disparaging too because NeoNazis get offended by that and disagree with that?
This is uncalled for. Now you are comparing Muhammad with Hitler, and you are comparing those who disagree with you to Nazis.
Will wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:58 pm
We moderns are far too ladylike & delicate. Recall the Saw Sutta where Buddha taught great tolerance & patience with uncomfortable, even painful conditions.
And you want to justify Buddhists disparaging other faiths by implying that if adherents of other faiths can't take it, it is because they do not live up to the tolerance displayed by Buddhists.

This Topic is an embarrassment. It has no place on a forum devoted to a Buddhist discussion on the Dhamma.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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DooDoot
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:49 pm
Yes I am careful.
Not careful. This is obvious. Millions of innocent lives have been destroyed due to anti-Islamism since 9/11.
Where in that article does it say that the killing of the people of Banu Qurayza was carried out only because those people were Jewish?
You claim to be careful yet can't read clearly?
There were three Jewish tribes living in and around Yathrib, the Banu Qainuqa’, the Ban Nadir and the Banu Quraiza. Once Muhammad realized that they are not going to accept him as their new prophet, he turned against them. He banished the first two, after confiscating their properties and wealth and massacred the last one.
The Banu Quaiza engaged in a war against Muhammad & they lost that war. If the Banu Quaiza were merely praying in a synagogue they would not have lost their lives as a result of their own actions of making war. The Muslims quickly administered all of Persia, Egypt & the Levant yet did not go on a killing spree against Jews & Christians (the Peoples of the Book).
It doesnt make a difference whether they were Jewish or any other religion or no religion - they were all killed and you were justifying that in that first reply you made to my post.
Many tribes were killed in those wars in Arabia. Yet the article highlights a Jewish tribe and you bring into your posts a Holocaust-Nazi narrative. Have you mentioned the other tribes who died in the wars they chose to be involved in? Have you mentioned the millions murdered by American presidents? Have you mentioned the slaughters by the Israelites in the Bible or in Palestine? To me, your posts are tainted with political propaganda.
They are helping other Muslims to leave Islam by exposing the truth about Islam which tends to be hidden under political correctness.
It is against Buddhist principles to seek to have others leave their religion. The other thread you started seems to want people here to help you have people leave Islam. This is not ethical in Buddhism.
One could even say the Buddha disliked suffering which is why he taught the Dhamma. But it was much more than just dislike - it was based on understanding and the will to help all beings to liberate themselves from Samsara. Likewise ex-muslims who freed themselves from Islam are helping other Muslims - such as their parents, friends, relatives and any muslims out there to help leave Islam by helping them understand the hidden truth about Islam.
This comparison is invalid because:

1. Your posts here obviously are samsaric. Wanting Muslims to leave Islam is samsaric. Supporting a war-promoting-Neo-Con-Anti-Islamic narrative is samsaric. Yet you claim you are a Buddhist wanting to be liberated from samsara?

2. The Buddha in Theravada never ever intended to help all beings liberate themselves from samsara.

3. Islam is a moral doctrine that is more closer to Buddhist morality than Western societies. The Buddha in Theravada taught the duty of religious teachers is to show laypeople a path to heaven, which Islam does. The Buddha in Theravada never ever taught all beings are to be liberated in Nibbana.

Since your modus operandi here seems to have become clear, I will attempt to amend my post on the other thread. :anjali:

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Dharmasherab » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:00 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:25 am
Jizya is tax. The Muslims tried to create a civil society, with charity, which requires tax revenue. Charity is a significant theme in the Koran. I already posted many Jews become enormously wealthy under Islam (because they were able to particularly dominate the banking industry); therefore the tax was obviously not an issue to them.


Jizya is not an ordinary tax - it is specifically taken from those who are people of the book. And if a person cannot pay then either the person has to convert to Islam or face the death penalty. Charity and tax are two different things. Charity is when money or a beneficial item is given by choice and will. Tax is when a payment is made compulsory. So it is important that you dont confuse the two. The Koran also justifies war booty - which is basically a form of theft. Whether Jews become wealthy or not is not what in question over here. Its just that specific individuals were obligded to pay a special type of tax simply because they followed a different religion. The statement about Jewish people are rich so they did not have a problem with tax - not only this statement is inaccurate but it is just incorrect. Just because people are of a certain religion or race doesnt make all of them rich. That statement made by you is imprecise and inaccurate. Hence it is false speech made by you.
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:25 am
if you starting measuring Muhammad against Buddha, this is unfair, because they are different in their roles.


There have been plenty of instances where Jesus was compared with Buddha. Muhammad being a founder of Islam (which is a religion) can be compared with Buddha to see their differences and similarities.
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:25 am
When the ordinary person is being attacked, Muhammad says to defend yourself & Buddha says to practise non-violence. The ordinary person obviously wants to defend them self. Imagine if the Buddha was walking around during the Holocaust. Buddha would just say: "Let it go; its not yours; not-self".


Seriously why are you even practising Buddhism?

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Dharmasherab » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:33 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am
Millions of innocent lives have been destroyed due to anti-Islamism since 9/11.


What has criticism of the character of Muhammad and the teachings of Islam got to do with global political action against countries with Muslims? The authors of WikiIslam are just ex-muslims. They don’t promote anything political or current affairs situations. Why do you have to bring up global politics and wars in the recent age? I am making criticism of Islam which has existed long before your Republican or Democratic parties. I also clearly mentioned to you that I don’t have strong political opinions. But you just keep repeating yourself.

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am
The Banu Quaiza engaged in a war against Muhammad & they lost that war. If the Banu Quaiza were merely praying in a synagogue they would not have lost their lives as a result of their own actions of making war.
Actually it was Muhammad who waged war against them. Banu Qurayza did not want to get involved in war with Muhammad.
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am
It is against Buddhist principles to seek to have others leave their religion. The other thread you started seems to want people here to help you have people leave Islam. This is not ethical in Buddhism.
Where did I say that I wanted to convert Muslims into Buddhism? You are the one who is saying these things – not me. Just think about the number of times you broke the 4th Precept?

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am
Your posts here obviously are samsaric. Wanting Muslims to leave Islam is samsaric.


Then why did you leave Catholicism/Christianity? Isn’t your wanting to leave also Samsaric too? If Muslims want to leave Islam then it is their right.
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am
Supporting a war-promoting-Neo-Con-Anti-Islamic narrative is samsaric.


Where did I say anywhere I support any wars? I am not even from the United States. You just make these unsubstantiated claims about people that you don’t know about. Maybe you should go through the group guidelines.
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am
The Buddha in Theravada never ever intended to help all beings liberate themselves from samsara.
What has this statement got to do with this post?
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am
Islam is a moral doctrine that is more closer to Buddhist morality than Western societies. The Buddha in Theravada taught the duty of religious teachers is to show laypeople a path to heaven, which Islam does.

(facepalm)
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:11 am
Since your modus operandi here seems to have become clear
What you see as ‘modus operandi’ is your own illusion. I call it ‘straw man’.

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Dharmasherab » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:12 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:45 am
And, although I understand that this is a touchy subject, telling pleasant sounding lies about it is worse than telling unpleasant truths. For this reason, you cannot adopt a judgemental tone against us for telling the unpleasant truth, as opposed to pleasant lies unsuported by the canonical trusted sources. This kind of unpleasant truths would be acceptable if we were talking about L Ron Hubbardd. The criticism of conservative and ultraconservative christian beliefs would be acceptable. We can think about Islam and Muhammad with the same level of scrutiny.
Unfortufortunately soon as someone brings the hidden truth about Islam people bring logical fallacies such as name calling to attach stigma in an attempt to silence them.

I do not know whether this is a misattributed quote by Voltaire or not byt nevertheless we are seeing this becoming more apparant - "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Dharmasherab » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:45 pm

It seems that this post has gone off topic so to do justice to the original initial post let me bring it back to its original course -

The initial post was focussed on two different aspects -

1. Whether Muhammad was a pedophile
2. Whether Muhammad was worthy of respect or not.

1. The evidence that Muhammad married Aisha and had sex with her when she was 9 years old is way too strong to be ignored. Some try to justify this saying that the age of 9 to have sex with Aisha was appropriate claiming that Aisha was menstruating (even though there is no evidence in Islamic sources to suggest that Aisha was menstruating at the age of 9). Even despite that she was a child who used to play with dolls when Muhammad was having a relationship with her. Dolls are considered a form of idols but children were made an expection because they used dolls as toys. As Aisha was playing with dolls it just shows that even if she was menstruating that she has the mentality of a child and not a fully grown adult - as we would expect from any 9 year old. So it is clear that Aisha was still a child in every sense of the word when Muhammad had sex with her.

But the next argument is whether Muhammad should be labelled as a pedophile or not. This is debatable. The word pedophile was a term that was invented recently. In ancient history there have been people who married children so they can have a wife who's viginity was guranteed and it is well documented in history from various parts of the world. In my own opinion Muhammad was a man of his time and therefore by marrying a young girl he was following the custom which was most likely considered to be acceptable at his time. However he also claimed to be a messenger of God to all mankind and claimed himself to be the perfect role model. The problem starts when people start following him as a role model considering his behaviour was universal and timeless, when actually he was just following what was acceptable during his own time only. Child marriage is known to happen in countries where there is Shariah Law and the legal justification for marrying pre-pubertal girls comes from the example that Muhammad left behind when he married and consummated the marriage (had sex with) Aisha. There are incident where young Muslims girls die in pregnancy after being married off to men who are far older than them because even though they menstruate the rest of theit body anatomy has still not reached full maturity to have a successful childbirth.

So in my opinon Muhammad should not be called a pedophile despite him having sex with a child. However we also need to be aware that he is considered to be a role model by a large number of people in the world today and this aspect is something concerning which is not to be taken lightly.

2. Is Muhammad worthy of respect? That depends on which moralistic point of view you are talking from. Here it is important to appreciate the 'global' view of morality as something that is relative based on time and place. But since this a Buddhist forum we can also comment from a Buddhist point of view too. Since Muhammad claimed to be a role model for all for all times we can also look at him from what is considered 'moral' from today's point of view. If you are interested in whether Muhammad deserves to be respected from a Buddhist point of view/modern day ethics based on law then read on -

Having sex with a child was not the only thing morally questionable that Muhammad with respect to the question whether he was worthy of respect or not. There are plenty of other aspects to Muhammad's life which brings his behaviour into question. I will use the basic 5 precepts as well as Right Livelihood aspect of of Buddhism as benchmarks to see whether Muhammad meets these standards. If not then I don’t see a reason why as Buddhists we should show him any more respect than Mao or Stalin.

As for the links from the source I use which is WikiIslam I will give links to pages with quotes from Hadeeth and Quran – because those are the sources of Islamic teachings.


A. BUDDHIST PRECEPT ONE – TO REFRAIN FROM KILLING/HARMING SENTIENT BEINGS –

Here is a list of killings ordered or supported by Muhammad
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killi ... y_Muhammad
It shows a table with the names of people that got assassinated. The fourth column gives reference to the respective hadeeth about the incidents.

Quotes related to mass murder by Muhammad from Quran and Hadeeth
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... ass_Murder

Quotes related to violence by Muhammad from Quran and Hadeeth
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... r_Muhammad

Quotes related to terrorism by Muhammad from Quran and Hadeeth
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... _Terrorism

Quotes related to torture by Muhammad from Quran and Hadeeth
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... nd_Torture

Quotes related to warmongering by Muhammad from Quran and Hadeeth
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... rmongering

Quotes related to Islam and Muhammad from Quran and Hadeeth where offensive jihad against non-believers is mandated
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... g_Mandated

Stoning (lapidation)
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... rs:Stoning

Amputation
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... Amputation

Conclusion – Muhammad was a murderer, an assassin and a torturer


B. BUDDHIST PRECEPT TWO – TO REFRAIN FROM STEALING THINGS

Quotes from Quran and Hadeeth on Muhammad and his plunders
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... Plundering

Conclusion – Muhammad stole in a massive scale


C. BUDDHIST PRECEPT THREE – TO REFRAIN FROM SEXUAL MISCONDUCT

Quotes related to Islam and Muhammad from Quran and Hadeeth on Rape
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... olars:Rape

Mariyah the sex slave of Muhammad – the parts in the green boxes are from hadeeth and related quotes from the Quran
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Mariyah_the_S ... ly_Prophet

Conclusion – Muhammad committed rape, did not stop his followers from raping captive women and he also committed adultery with a woman and took he as her sex slave.


D. BUDDHIST PRECEPT FOUR – TO REFRAIN FROM LYING

Muhammad – evidence from Hadeeth that he considered it acceptable for Muslims to to lie why he himself admits that he lies sometimes.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... _and_Lying

Quotes related to deception by Muhammad from Quran and Hadeeth
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... _Deception

More quotes on lying in the Quran and Hadeeth where some of them openly show support for lying and deception
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... _Deception

Conclusion – Muhammad did lie and encouraged Muslims to consider lying as acceptable


E. BUDDHIST PRECEPT FIVE – TO REFRAIN FROM INTOXICANTS

It is well known that Muhammad discouraged alcohol and this aspect of his life is consistent with the 5th Precept.


RIGHT LIVELIHOOD

Muhammad practiced slavery. He caught and traded slaves till the end of his life.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... rs:Slavery

In the links to quotes from Quran and Hadeeth Muhammad lived a life where most of his time involved living a life contrary to 4 out of the 5 Precepts. So Muhammad from the viewpoint of Buddhism was not following Right Livelihood (Samma Ajiva)


Looking at the evidence from Islam’s own sources it is evident that Muhammad did not lead a life which was not consistent with but contrary to Buddhist ethics even its most basic and fundamental level.

Some might argue that the Quran is the only text in Islam and not Hadeeth. However Quran-only Islam is not a reality because it would be impossible to interpret the Quranic verses without using the Hadeeth to put them into context. The Quran has so many spontaneous verses about war inciting hatred to non-muslims and cursing them and calling them names that that without the Hadeeth, the Quran just looks like a disjointed rant.

But despite all of this whether we choose to respect Muhammad is up to us as individuals whether they want to respect him in the same way people respect people such as Gandhi or Mother Teresa or whether people want to respect him the way they ‘respect’ people such as Mao and Stalin.

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:39 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:50 am
clw_uk wrote:From my understanding, Muhammad married Aisha at age seven and consummated the marriage at age 9. This makes Muhammad a paedophile as he engaged in intercourse with her before puberty.
It's sounds very tacky, but was that the cultural norm back then? At my local group recently somebody was criticising the Buddha for leaving his wife and child to go off "wandering". :shrug:
This story has been debunked repeatedly and throughly for several centuries, yet it still keeps popping up like the antisemtic attacks on Jews (charges often made by the same people who propagate anti-Muslim propaganda).

By the way, it is not an Arab custom to sign marriage contracts for children, like European royalty used to, and it is a crime to have relations with a child. Speaking of that, there have been recent claims that it is culturally permissible to have sex with children in the US state of Alabama or that it legal in that state with the “permission” of the mother. This, too, is demonstrably false, but I am sure will be repeated over and over.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Will
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Will » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:14 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:05 am
Will wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:58 pm
We moderns are far too ladylike & delicate. Recall the Saw Sutta where Buddha taught great tolerance & patience with uncomfortable, even painful conditions.
And you want to justify Buddhists disparaging other faiths by implying that if adherents of other faiths can't take it, it is because they do not live up to the tolerance displayed by Buddhists.
No LN, you did not read carefully, unless you are not a Buddhist yourself (are you a Muslim?). The point I was mentioning is that Buddhists who cannot tolerate uncomfortable words on any subject from any source are feeble adherents to the Dhamma.
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19

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L.N.
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:22 pm

Will wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:14 pm
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:05 am
Will wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:58 pm
We moderns are far too ladylike & delicate. Recall the Saw Sutta where Buddha taught great tolerance & patience with uncomfortable, even painful conditions.
And you want to justify Buddhists disparaging other faiths by implying that if adherents of other faiths can't take it, it is because they do not live up to the tolerance displayed by Buddhists.
No LN, you did not read carefully, unless you are not a Buddhist yourself (are you a Muslim?). The point I was mentioning is that Buddhists who cannot tolerate uncomfortable words on any subject from any source are feeble adherents to the Dhamma.
When I see injustice, I believe it is appropriate to speak out. This does not reflect a lack of tolerance, or that I or anyone else who disagrees with these unjust portrayals of other faiths are "feeble adherents to the Dhamma," as you put it.

I understand you may agree with those who disparage other faiths. The fact that others do not agree does not make them "feeble adherents to the Dhamma." Why do you wish to indict the personal characteristics of those with whom you disagree?
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:33 pm

Dharmasherab wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:12 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:45 am
And, although I understand that this is a touchy subject, telling pleasant sounding lies about it is worse than telling unpleasant truths. For this reason, you cannot adopt a judgemental tone against us for telling the unpleasant truth, as opposed to pleasant lies unsuported by the canonical trusted sources. This kind of unpleasant truths would be acceptable if we were talking about L Ron Hubbardd. The criticism of conservative and ultraconservative christian beliefs would be acceptable. We can think about Islam and Muhammad with the same level of scrutiny.
Unfortufortunately soon as someone brings the hidden truth about Islam people bring logical fallacies such as name calling to attach stigma in an attempt to silence them.

I do not know whether this is a misattributed quote by Voltaire or not byt nevertheless we are seeing this becoming more apparant - "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"
No, a neo-Nazi said that, referring to homosexuals in America post-1993. Voltaire did not say it.

That saying, is, quite literally, gay agenda paranoia from the 90s.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Will
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Will » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:41 pm

LN:
When I see injustice, I believe it is appropriate to speak out.
That is obvious; but do you have a passage from the suttas where Buddha taught to speak out against 'injustice'?

Kamma-phala suggests that injustice & justice are non sequiturs.
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19

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L.N.
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:58 pm

Will wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:41 pm
That is obvious; but do you have a passage from the suttas where Buddha taught to speak out against 'injustice'?
Interesting question, and one that I have seen put forward by those who wish for people to shut up about certain issues. I did find the following:
From the evidence of the Buddha's discourses, or suttas in the Digha Nikaya, it is clear that early Buddhists were very much concerned with the creation of social conditions favorable to the individual cultivation of Buddhist values. An outstanding example of this, in later times, is the remarkable "welfare state" created by the Buddhist emperor, Asoka (B.C. 274-236). Walpola Rahula stated the situation — perhaps at its strongest — when he wrote that "Buddhism arose in India as a spiritual force against social injustices, against degrading superstitious rites, ceremonies and sacrifices; it denounced the tyranny of the caste system and advocated the equality of all men; it emancipated woman and gave her complete spiritual freedom." (Rahula, 1978). The Buddhist scriptures do indicate the general direction of Buddhist social thinking, and to that extent they are suggestive for our own times. Nevertheless it would be pedantic, and in some cases absurd, to apply directly to modern industrial society social prescriptions detailed to meet the needs of social order which flourished twenty-three centuries ago. The Buddhist householder of the Sigalovada Sutta [1] experienced a different way of life from that of a computer consultant in Tokyo or an unemployed black youth in Liverpool. And the conditions which might favor their cultivation of the Middle Way must be secured by correspondingly different — and more complex — social, economic and political strategies.
"Buddhism and Social Action: An Exploration", by Ken Jones. Access to Insight (BCBS Edition), 30 November 2013, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el285.html.

I understand you and others would like people like me to just shut up and go away. That is why you suggest I and others who speak out are "feeble" adherents of the Dhamma. You want us to shut up and go away.

Do you have suttas where the Buddha taught that it is better to remain silent when there is injustice?
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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