Cula Sotapanna

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Cula Sotapanna

Post by Jechbi »

Hello all,

From time to time I've come across the notion of "cula sotapanna," or lesser sotapanna, but I seldom see it mentioned on discussion boards and I wonder if it's held out as an intermediate goal of practice (so to speak) in the manner that stream-entry is, but more like an almost-there stage.

From here:
The Mogok Sayadaw assured that those who had fulfilled the four conditions in the past life and died before attaining a noble status, they were guaranteed a rebirth in a Deva realm with a subsequent realisation of Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and liberation.

They were the Buddha's words and one can take them for granted. The four conditions are as follows:
  • (1) The person must have listened to a discourse about the realities of existence, Anicca (impermanence), Dukkha (suffering) and Anatta (void of self or ego or immortal soul).
    (2) The person must have learnt about these realities and can recite them verbally. It is known as Cutamaya panna or acquired knowledge.
    (3) The person must have reflected these realities during Vipassana meditation. It is Cintamaya panna or knowledge acquired through analytic inquest.
    (4) The person must have witnessed the arising and dissolving phenomenon of meditation objects and have perceived the concept of Anatta (impersonal). Vipassana nana (Uddayabbaya nana) or knowledge or insight into the absence of immortal soul. This would be equivalent to a Cula Sotapanna.

These persons may not have experienced the realities of existence through the Bhavanamaya panna and have not reached the noble status as a human. When they die they will be reborn in one of the six Deva realms (heavens) and will attain either Sotapanna, Sakadagam, Anagam or Arahat in the following ways.
  • 1. Yogi (meditator) who had fulfilled the four conditions and died with the reflection of the three realities of existence, Acicca, Dukkha and Anatta, would be reborn as a Deva immediately, but the continuity of the last thought would enable the Yogi to reflect upon these realities before the Yogi realised that he or she was a Deva. This reflection will result in a noble status immediately and a teacher is not required to assist him for liberation.
    2. Yogi who had fulfilled the four conditions, but died without the reflection of the realities would be reborn as a Deva. The Yogi will be assisted to realise these realities by the Devas who know his thought and will persuade him to reflect upon them. The Yogi will reach a noble status there and then with a little help.
    3. Yogi who had fulfilled the four conditions, but died without reflection of the realities would be reborn as a Deva. The Yogi will attain a noble status within a week as a Deva after attending a meeting of Devas and hearing a discourse. The meeting is held weekly and is attended by Devas of all six heavens and discourses are given by liberated ones.
    4. Yogi who died in a similar way and was reborn as a Deva would be approached by his Dhamma friends and would persuade him to continue with the practice.
Anyone know anything more about this condition know as cula sotapanna? Canonical? Speculation? Tradition? Something else?
:thanks:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5620
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by robertk »

Sujin Boriharnwanaket, the famous Thai teacher, says essentially the same thing as Mogok sayadaw. Cula -sotappana is mentioned in many Commentaries.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Does this bear any relationship to the concepts of a "Dhamma follower" and "Faith follower" which we see mentioned in the suttas?

Apparently these followers will not die before attaining sotapanna.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
piotr
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by piotr »

Hi,

Here is a quote from Piya Tan's introduction to Sarakāni-sutta (SN 55.24):
  • 2 Six categories of saints

    The Buddha goes on to list six categories of persons who are assured of liberation, namely:

    (1) arhats,
    (2) non-returners,
    (3) once-returnres
    (4) stream-winners,
    (5) [truth-followers] those who accept the Dharma only after pondering over it with wisdom
    (dhammā paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamanti) who do not have quick and sharp wisdom
    and have not attained complete release, but who do possess the five faculties (pañc'indriyani)
    of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom [sutta §11]; and
    (6) [faith-followers] those who only possess the five faculties but who have mere faith (saddhā,matta) in and mere love (pema,matta) for the Buddha.

    The elder monks of old (poraṇaka thera) call such spiritually developed persons like (5) and (6) as "lesser
    stream-winners
    " (cūḷa,sotāpanna) or "maturing stream-winner" (bala,sotāpanna). — Piya Tan, Sarākani Sutta 1: The Discourse on Sarākani
I attach whole paper for your convenience.
Attachments
3.6SarakaniSs55.24piya.pdf
(166.75 KiB) Downloaded 596 times
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by Jechbi »

Awesome, :thanks: piotr!

I noted the subtitle of the paper (Even a drunk can be enlightened). That seems counter-intuitive. I'll read the paper more closely.

Also, I think I read somewhere else that a cula-sotappana is not assured of liberation but can still fall of the wagon, so to speak, maybe because all fetters are still intact?

:thumbsup:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by rowyourboat »

this is a very important topic as we should atleast strive to be cula-sotapannas. They seem to be synonymous with sotapatti-magga persons, but not sotapatti phala persons (if you believe that particular version of the 8 types of followers).

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have abandoned the three fetters, are all stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who are Dhamma-followers and conviction-followers 18 are all headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have a [sufficient] measure of conviction in me, a [sufficient] measure of love for me, are all headed for heaven. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

their insights are as follows (as opposed to stream entrants):

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#okkanta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

they also seem to be meditating as they are said to haev the five spiritual faculties:

Bhikkhus, who is the person living according to the Teaching (dhamma-follower). : Here, bhikkhus, a certain person does not experience those immaterial attainments with the body. His desires are not destroyed, not seeing with wisdom. He is convinced in the Teaching of the Thus Gone One to a certain extent, by wisely thinking about it. Yet to him there are the faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. To this one is said, living according to the Teaching. To this bhikkhu too I say, there is something to be done diligently. What is the reason: Bhikkhus, this one partaking of suitable dwellings, associating good friends, and with the development of his faculties, for whatever reason this clansman left the household and became homeless, that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, would realize and abide. Seeing these good results for diligence I tell this bhikkhu to be diligent.

Bhikkhus, who is the person living according to faith (faith-follower)? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not experience the immaterial attainments with the body. His desires are not destroyed, not seeing with wisdom. He has some faith and love for the Thus Gone One Yet to him there are the faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdomTo this one is said, living according to faith. To this bhikkhu too I say, there is something to be done diligently. What is the reason: Bhikkhus, this one partaking of suitable dwellings, associating good friends, and with the development of his faculties, for whatever reason this clansman left the household and became homeless, that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, will realize. Seeing these good results for diligence, I tell this bhikkhu to be diligent.

http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta ... ri-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The stages are said to arise after ditti-visuddhi (3rd purifcation) of the 7 stages of purification. A sotapanna is said to 'know and see'. All stages of purifcation after the 3rd have the words 'know and see' after them. So it is assumed that a culla-sotapanna has reached this stage of satipatthana development.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by Jechbi »

rowyourboat wrote:They seem to be synonymous with sotapatti-magga persons, but not sotapatti phala persons (if you believe that particular version of the 8 types of followers).
Thanks, rowyourboat.

Quick followup: I understood that sotapatti-magga citta lasts for just a moment before sotapatti-phala citta arises, so that a sotapatti maggattha person for practical purposes isn't someone we're ever going to meet, because such a person becomes a sotapatti-phalattha person in very short order. So I think both would be different from cula-sotapanna. Or am I mistaken?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6494
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:Quick followup: I understood that sotapatti-magga citta lasts for just a moment before sotapatti-phala citta arises, so that a sotapatti maggattha person for practical purposes isn't someone we're ever going to meet, because such a person becomes a sotapatti-phalattha person in very short order. So I think both would be different from cula-sotapanna. Or am I mistaken?
No, you're correct. The cullasotāpanna knows what's magga and what's not, but hasn't yet attained magga.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6236
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by confusedlayman »

somewhere I read that cult sotapanna is someone who has right view but no path.. is it possible?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
dhammachakka
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:59 pm

Re: Cula Sotapanna

Post by dhammachakka »

Jechbi wrote: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:48 am Hello all,

From time to time I've come across the notion of "cula sotapanna," or lesser sotapanna, but I seldom see it mentioned on discussion boards and I wonder if it's held out as an intermediate goal of practice (so to speak) in the manner that stream-entry is, but more like an almost-there stage.

From here:
The Mogok Sayadaw assured that those who had fulfilled the four conditions in the past life and died before attaining a noble status, they were guaranteed a rebirth in a Deva realm with a subsequent realisation of Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and liberation.

They were the Buddha's words and one can take them for granted. The four conditions are as follows:
  • (1) The person must have listened to a discourse about the realities of existence, Anicca (impermanence), Dukkha (suffering) and Anatta (void of self or ego or immortal soul).
    (2) The person must have learnt about these realities and can recite them verbally. It is known as Cutamaya panna or acquired knowledge.
    (3) The person must have reflected these realities during Vipassana meditation. It is Cintamaya panna or knowledge acquired through analytic inquest.
    (4) The person must have witnessed the arising and dissolving phenomenon of meditation objects and have perceived the concept of Anatta (impersonal). Vipassana nana (Uddayabbaya nana) or knowledge or insight into the absence of immortal soul. This would be equivalent to a Cula Sotapanna.

These persons may not have experienced the realities of existence through the Bhavanamaya panna and have not reached the noble status as a human. When they die they will be reborn in one of the six Deva realms (heavens) and will attain either Sotapanna, Sakadagam, Anagam or Arahat in the following ways.
  • 1. Yogi (meditator) who had fulfilled the four conditions and died with the reflection of the three realities of existence, Acicca, Dukkha and Anatta, would be reborn as a Deva immediately, but the continuity of the last thought would enable the Yogi to reflect upon these realities before the Yogi realised that he or she was a Deva. This reflection will result in a noble status immediately and a teacher is not required to assist him for liberation.
    2. Yogi who had fulfilled the four conditions, but died without the reflection of the realities would be reborn as a Deva. The Yogi will be assisted to realise these realities by the Devas who know his thought and will persuade him to reflect upon them. The Yogi will reach a noble status there and then with a little help.
    3. Yogi who had fulfilled the four conditions, but died without reflection of the realities would be reborn as a Deva. The Yogi will attain a noble status within a week as a Deva after attending a meeting of Devas and hearing a discourse. The meeting is held weekly and is attended by Devas of all six heavens and discourses are given by liberated ones.
    4. Yogi who died in a similar way and was reborn as a Deva would be approached by his Dhamma friends and would persuade him to continue with the practice.
Anyone know anything more about this condition know as cula sotapanna? Canonical? Speculation? Tradition? Something else?
:thanks:
i may like to prepare a compilation of the teachings of most ven. mogok sayadaw & other sayadaws / sayagyis on cula-sotāpanna & mahā-sotāpanna. kindly post all such excerpts with proper reference citations.

i tried to click the reference link provided you but it did not open. googling did not help either. kindly provide proper reference citations for the post-death mahā-sotāpanna scenarios described by you. is it from ven. mogok sayadaw's discourses?

regards and metta,

manish
Post Reply