The right shame is sensitive to harm & harmlessness. As soon as it discerns any harm or suffering arising from an action, it gives up that type of action.
The sutta does not say this. The sutta says shame comes 1st. When there is right shame, evil friendship is shunned & noble friendship is eventually found. Right shame should not be indoctrinated but should occur naturally.
There is no Catch 22 for the independent spiritual being, who seeks the Dhamma after developing right shame. In the suttas, there is a play on words about the meaning of 'Brahmin' to mean 'one who turns away' from evil. The original Brahmins had no religious teaching but naturally turned away from the evil in society & left society to live in secluded places.
Thanissaro appears to have contradicted the Buddha here. Thanissaro's idea of "we all have a certain about of goodness" sounds Mahayana.binocular wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 amThis Catch 22 could be resolved in a similar way as Ven. Thanissaro suggests here:There's a passage in the Canon where the Buddha says that a person who doesn't have a basic level of happiness and inner goodness simply cannot do goodness. Sounds like a Catch-22, but that's not the point. The point is we all have a certain amount of goodness in our minds, and so we should tap into that first.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ions2.html
I just finished reading this article of what appears to be deliberate lies to some, written by two ex-NATO military leaders, who give the impression of wanting to bring war, death & trauma to thousands of lives in a peaceful country: http://thehill.com/opinion/national-sec ... n-sanction This two people here give an impression of having no dhammic shame (hiri; conscience).
I don't agree here. Most people I know do not have basic 'hiri' (individual conscience), which is why they do not embrace sila (moralty) but embrace liberalism, political correctness & the worldly ways of the world.binocular wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 amSo, similarly, perhaps everyone already feels some shame to begin with, and even though it's not necessarily a consistently skillful shame, it may be good enough for a start (but that also seems to imply that progress on the Path isn't a straight line, one sure step after another, but more like two steps forward, one step back, or like walking around in circles, but where the centers of the circles can be ordered into a line of progression -- tough to accept this as progress).
When I was a teenager, I followed the ways of the world, acting in certain ways. But as soon as I saw the deep harm of that kind of behaviour, I gave it up. Yet most people thought I was crazy to give up that kind of behaviour. This is example of natural 'hiri'. I know so many people doing the same old actions bringing the same old suffering to their lives & to the lives of others; over & over & over again. These people do not have basic hiri. Often minds without basic hiri adopt doctrines of victimhood or rationalize harming is just human nature. Too much craving, need or even trauma can obstruct shame.