Eating in a restaurant part 2

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:31 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:04 pm
I think that somehow some people here think I am advising going to your average person on the street who is completely unaware of buddhism much less the anatta doctrine and advising them that their feelings are unimportant and just forget them.
:strawman:
Not what I've seen on this thread.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dinsdale
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:38 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:21 am
I don't know what all is meant by 'dismissing feelings' but it sounds alot like aversion to me....I guess....don't know for sure....I could be wrong....
chownah
It could well be aversion, for example not wanting to acknowledge a feeling of remorse when one has actually caused harm.
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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:50 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:35 am
In general, it seems that in traditional/conservative cultures, when one feels a certain way, this is seen as a situation that behooves a moral analysis of the issue at hand with the goal to change one's behavior from then on. ...
But, generally speaking, Americans seem to be more concerned with the management of the feelings per se, without any moral analysis. "Oh, I feel like such a hypocrite! I need to take some pills/take a bubble bath/eat a pizza to feel better."
That is an overgeneralization.
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:51 am
Imagine a conversation like this:
Smith: I feel like such a hypocrite!
Jones: Oh, it's just a feeling, it's not who you are. Let it go.

And then what??
This depends entirely on the context. It also does not reflect what chownah has said.

The best focus for the teachings is on oneself, not using them to judge others. Chownah has set forth a valid perspective. Nobody is encouraging anybody to avoid personal responsibility.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:11 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:31 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:04 pm
I think that somehow some people here think I am advising going to your average person on the street who is completely unaware of buddhism much less the anatta doctrine and advising them that their feelings are unimportant and just forget them.
:strawman:
Not what I've seen on this thread.
I gave a statement of what I think....of how I interpret what has been going on in this thread. Now you are saying that what I think and my understanding of what has been presented in this thread is something to be dismissed.

If I go to someone who is a buddhist and well versed in the sutta presentations of anatta do you think that if I say that a feeling is not the self and is not owned by a self that they will dismiss their feelings? Would you dismiss your feelings if someone said that to you?.....binocular?....L.N.?.....sam vera?.....me?......

For buddhists who know about the sutta presentations of anatta to mention that a feeling is not self and not owned by a self is just a reminder of what the buddha taught about feelings....something he taught time after time after time......

Maybe all those suttas mentioning anatta should be removed from the pali canon because they are too dangerous? :jumping:
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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:07 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
....and later in the thread it was mentioned:
What would bother me about this kind of situation is feeling like a hypocrite. Personally I wouldn't want to break the first precept or do wrong livelihood ( butchery ), but by ordering or buying meat I'd be expecting somebody else to do these things on my behalf.
......to which I replied:
I think you bring up a good point about feeling like a hypocrite. To some extent the issue is an issue of what feelings arise and how one grasps those feelings. If one feels like a hypocrit this is probaby associated with aversion......one then needs to see that this feeling and this aversion are not self...not yours.....etc.
chownah
This strikes me as a compassionate reply. Nothing objectionable here. When a thought arises or a feeling arises, we have an opportunity to recognize what is true about it. The feeling itself might reflect a true situation. One might indeed have acted in a hypocritical manner in the particular instance. Recognizing this, one then has an opportunity to make a change for the better. In addition, the recognition of the feeling as not me, not mine etc. is true.

What is probably false, however, is to identify with the feeling to such an extent that one believes, "I am a hypocrite." Labeling oneself, beating oneself up, is a mental trap which can be an unwanted side-effect of identifying too strongly with otherwise helpful impulses. A foolish act should result in a desire to act less foolishly. A foolish act should not lead one to regard oneself as a fool. This also can lead to name-calling when applied to others.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

Dinsdale
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:23 am

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:50 pm
Nobody is encouraging anybody to avoid personal responsibility.
Perhaps not, but going "straight to anatta" with a feeling of remorse could well have that effect - effectively dismissing the remorse, rather than examining why it has arisen, and if one has done harm. It's like trying to go straight to panna, without the foundation of sila.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:25 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:11 am
Now you are saying that what I think and my understanding of what has been presented in this thread is something to be dismissed.
No, I'm not saying that, and I wish you would drop the :strawman: and melodrama.

You still haven't provided a coherent response to a valid question posed by Binocular posed earlier in the thread: "Would you care to sketch out how one can take feelings (and thoughts etc.) as not self and not mine, and still not dismiss the moral issues etc. involved with them?"
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:13 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:25 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:11 am
Now you are saying that what I think and my understanding of what has been presented in this thread is something to be dismissed.
No, I'm not saying that, and I wish you would drop the :strawman: and melodrama.
Not strawman:
(with a minor change in the first sentence)
I am not advising going to your average person on the street who is completely unaware of buddhism much less the anatta doctrine and advising them that their feelings are unimportant and just forget them. Has anyone here actually advised such a person that feelings are not self?.....I have done so just to see what the reaction would be....they thought I was some kind of nut case or just making up stupid stuff to start an arguement. This seems to be what some people here are thinking about and it seems like a very unlikely scenario.....certainly if someone does this it is unlikely that they will see the light. I also think it is unlikely that you would have any impact at all on the person's behavior in that they would just right you off as being some kind of a kook. Anyone who would radically change their behavior (to be accepting of hypocracy for example) just because someone made a casual comment is probably really looking for someone to help them to justify being hypocritical and they are likely to continue to be hypocritical regardless of the not self comment. REally this scenario that binocular started seems really ridiculous to me in that it lacks any sort of credibility (in my view) as presenting a scenario which can be meaningfullly discussed.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:25 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:25 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:11 am
Now you are saying that what I think and my understanding of what has been presented in this thread is something to be dismissed.
No, I'm not saying that, and I wish you would drop the :strawman: and melodrama.

You still haven't provided a coherent response to a valid question posed by Binocular posed earlier in the thread: "Would you care to sketch out how one can take feelings (and thoughts etc.) as not self and not mine, and still not dismiss the moral issues etc. involved with them?"
I did answer the question. I would care to sketch out etc.....and here it is:
There is a very brief sketch called "The Four Noble Truths".
There is an expanded sketch called "The Eightfold Noble Path".
There is a detailed sketch called the "Tipitaka".
Other than that I would not care to sketch out etc.
"Sketching out" something as involved as anatta and its implications to morality is a recipe for fueling misunderstanding. Binocular has sketched out a scenario between smith and jones which has the same problem...it is so inadequate in presenting a discreet example that it just fuels misunderstanding and division.

Does anyone here really think that it is possible to cogently "sketch out" anatta and its implications to morality?
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Mr Man
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Mr Man » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:51 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:25 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:11 am
Now you are saying that what I think and my understanding of what has been presented in this thread is something to be dismissed.
No, I'm not saying that, and I wish you would drop the :strawman: and melodrama.

You still haven't provided a coherent response to a valid question posed by Binocular posed earlier in the thread: "Would you care to sketch out how one can take feelings (and thoughts etc.) as not self and not mine, and still not dismiss the moral issues etc. involved with them?"
Hi Spiny
My answer would be to use your intelligence and wisdom.

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:10 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:04 pm
Also, feeling a feeling and thinking about its arising is important and we should arouse our discernment and direct it to this task.....but this is not in conflict with also directing our discernment to seeing anatta.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
I think that somehow some people here think I am advising going to your average person on the street who is completely unaware of buddhism much less the anatta doctrine and advising them that their feelings are unimportant and just forget them.
No, I'm trying to figure out what you mean, so I've put forward several questions and the Smith and Jones dialogue, in an effort to zoom in and to give an opportunity to point out all (contra)distinctions.

I just find that you're not being detailed enough, and I have said that I don't understand what you mean, and I have asked for further explanations, and given prompts for further explanations.
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:25 am
Does anyone here really think that it is possible to cogently "sketch out" anatta and its implications to morality?
I do, and I expect you to do so, since you said:
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.
There is a very brief sketch called "The Four Noble Truths".
There is an expanded sketch called "The Eightfold Noble Path".
There is a detailed sketch called the "Tipitaka".
This is simply too general. Since you started this thread and put forward a claim, I expect you will be able to talk about it with your own words, in detail.

:coffee:
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chownah
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:10 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:04 pm
Also, feeling a feeling and thinking about its arising is important and we should arouse our discernment and direct it to this task.....but this is not in conflict with also directing our discernment to seeing anatta.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
What I am saying is that for example if someone feels like they are being a hypocrite then they would benefit by examining how this feeling arose and what were the circumstances which led to its arising. In other words, one should not dismiss the feeling...one should study it...one thing to study is whether there was an error in moral judgement which gave rise to it. In addition to this one should endeavor to study the feeling the way the buddha talks about feelings and most notably I have been talking about how the buddha talks about feelings (any feeling whatsoever) with respect to anatta (not self, not mine, etc.) This is not an either/or situation. One can benefit if one does both.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:51 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:10 pm

I just find that you're not being detailed enough, and I have said that I don't understand what you mean, and I have asked for further explanations, and given prompts for further explanations.
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:25 am
Does anyone here really think that it is possible to cogently "sketch out" anatta and its implications to morality?
I do, and I expect you to do so, since you said:
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.
There is a very brief sketch called "The Four Noble Truths".
There is an expanded sketch called "The Eightfold Noble Path".
There is a detailed sketch called the "Tipitaka".
This is simply too general. Since you started this thread and put forward a claim, I expect you will be able to talk about it with your own words, in detail.

:coffee:
Words only go so far. If you want words go read the buddha's words....they're better than anything I can come up with I'm sure. Even the buddha's words only go so far. Progress doesn't come from words....it comes from effort directing discernment towards experience. I have spent most of my life dedicated to discerning the way things really are. Whatever I might have learned about the way things really are did not come from a sketch. I can not provide a sketch.

I put forward the claim:
if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.

I just took this from the suttas which I have brought and shown you twice. The buddha taught that any feeling whatsoever should be viewed as not mine, not self, etc. I'm really wondering why you are asking me. Are you doubting what the buddha taught?...and think that I'm a better source of wisdom?
chownah

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:55 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 pm
What I am saying is that for example if someone feels like they are being a hypocrite then they would benefit by examining how this feeling arose and what were the circumstances which led to its arising. In other words, one should not dismiss the feeling...one should study it...one thing to study is whether there was an error in moral judgement which gave rise to it.
Okay.
I wouldn't call this an analysis of feelings per se, but an analysis of perceptions or assessments. The feeling here is just a prompt.

For example, in order to increase productivity, one might devise a new work schedule. Then, a while after starting with the new schedule, one might feel more productive. But unless one actually has a system in place to accurately record and measure productivity, how can one possibly know that one is in fact being more productive? One might feel more productive, and if one's work consists of producing easily countable units of product, then it may be easy enough to have a definitive answer as to whether one is more productive or not. But if one's work is very versatile (as is the case for many people), how can one know whether one is being more productive or not? One might very well feel more productive, but without actually being more productive. Feelings can be very misleading here.
In addition to this one should endeavor to study the feeling the way the buddha talks about feelings and most notably I have been talking about how the buddha talks about feelings (any feeling whatsoever) with respect to anatta (not self, not mine, etc.) This is not an either/or situation. One can benefit if one does both.
I think people who are serious about their work do this already, to some extent. It's part of emotional intelligence.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:58 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:51 pm
Words only go so far. If you want words go read the buddha's words....they're better than anything I can come up with I'm sure. Even the buddha's words only go so far. Progress doesn't come from words....it comes from effort directing discernment towards experience. I have spent most of my life dedicated to discerning the way things really are. Whatever I might have learned about the way things really are did not come from a sketch. I can not provide a sketch.
/.../
I just took this from the suttas which I have brought and shown you twice. The buddha taught that any feeling whatsoever should be viewed as not mine, not self, etc. I'm really wondering why you are asking me. Are you doubting what the buddha taught?...and think that I'm a better source of wisdom?
I want to see how masterfully you can handle the material.
:tongue:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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