The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

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Saengnapha
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:40 am

theY wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:09 am
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:59 pm
If you want sutta (that is - valid) explanation for Paths and Fruits, you should read this (SN 48.18):
While we talking about the end of meditation and the end of sutta, you showing us the meditating and the middle of sutta.

The question asking about magga-vithī, but you showing us vipassanā-vithī, why? Because you never recite and memorize tipitaka-pāli.

Read this carefuly:
Vipassanā (insight meditation) is magga (path), too. Because magga-bhāvanā (medittion/development) is sīla,samādhi, and bhāvanā. So, magga is not just one moment.

But one mind moment is ariya's comments about their enlightened moment. You can see in ādittapariyāya sutta, too.

Practitioner practices lokiya-magga, maybe long as whole life period, without any break to be an expert, ariya. So after his lokiya-magga-practiced complete perfectly, enlightened lokuttara-magga, practitioner, he can become to be ariya (professor of destroyed kilesa). After lokuttara-magga-enlightenment, he must content ariya-skill in every moment of him, because he practiced perfectly completely. every thinking of him must has perfect sīla, perfect samādhi, and perfect paññā. However, we can destroy kilesa just one time per enlighten step (4 ariya). So magga can arise to destroy kilesa just one time per path. After that no that destroyed-kilesa anymore. So magga have not arise anymore, too, because of nothing to do--no destroyed-kilesa to destroy, after each path enlightenment. Therefore, there is just one mind-moment of each magga, each path, while enlightening.
Thank you for the continued explanation. It is clearer now what the title of the thread means.

One mystery remains, though. What is theY? :D

2600htz
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by 2600htz » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm

Hello:

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.

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robertk
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by robertk » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:47 pm

2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm
Hello:

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.
Which part needs explaining?

perkele
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by perkele » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:46 pm

2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm
It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
I think theY's answer was about this:
theY wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:09 am
Practitioner practices lokiya-magga, maybe long as whole life period, without any break to be an expert, ariya. So after his lokiya-magga-practiced complete perfectly, enlightened lokuttara-magga, practitioner, he can become to be ariya (professor of destroyed kilesa). After lokuttara-magga-enlightenment, he must content ariya-skill in every moment of him, because he practiced perfectly completely.
(emphasis changed by me)

I do not understand it completely, but it seems the gist of it is that in Abhidhamma there is a distinction between lokiya-magga (the "worldly" path, or something like that) and lokuttara-magga (the supramundane path), and it is the latter which apparently supposedly only lasts for one mind-moment, at the breakthrough to the next stage of enlightenment, and directly followed by the phala "fruition" moment.

So, if I understand correctly, the lokiya-magga is a long time period, in which the practicioner strives for the next breakthrough, and the lokuttara-magga, comprised of a single mind-moment, followed by its culmination, another single mind moment called "phala" or "fruition".

Not sure if I have understood it correctly. What I am a bit puzzled about now is: Why should the lokuttara-magga moment come only at the end of the period of striving towards it (and towards it's "phala", which from the aspirant's perspective, can hardly be distinguished at all as a goal then). It would make more sense to me if the lokuttara-magga came at the beginning, as the "motivation" for an extended period of striving, - the lokiya-magga, - and then at some point its "fruition", the phala moment, followed immediately perhaps by the next lokuttara-magga as the "motivation" to carry on (if that last phala was not already arahatta-phala).

Maybe theY can explain this. But I think I have to break it down into some simpler English for it to be understandable:

TheY, can you explain this?

Why is it this sequence:
1 lokiya-magga (long period)
2 lokuttara-magga (one moment)
3 phala (one moment)
(4 times... for sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahat)

Why not this?
1 lokuttara-magga (one moment)
2 lokiya-magga (long period)
3 phala (one moment)
(4 times... for sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahat)

Where is saddhanussari or dhammanussari (practicing to become sotapanna) in this sequence? (at which number?)

Thanks. :anjali:

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Zom
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:59 pm

The question asking about magga-vithī, but you showing us vipassanā-vithī, why? Because you never recite and memorize tipitaka-pāli.
I'm showing you what is said about 4 paths and 4 fruits in the suttas. Nowhere there you will find another kind of explanation, like "one-moment-path". There is, for example, such thing as "a path to non-returning", and no way this is a "one mind moment", but instead this is a long period of time. This is very clear if you read what I cited carefully. The Buddha says: "the four pairs, the eight individuals — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world".

2600htz
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by 2600htz » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:14 am

robertk wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:47 pm
2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm
Hello:

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.
Which part needs explaining?
Hello Robert:

a)Just to be clear: If a person follows abhidhamma, does he agree with the suttas provided by the user Zom? (or that person thinks its some later addition, a bad translation, or something like that).

b)If a person follows abhidhamma, what does he think of the idea that in the suttas there appears to be a strong time difference between path and fruition? (to the extend that its even possible to talk about 8 kind of individuals).

Sorry if it was already explained, but in previous posts there was so much pali terminology and concepts that it was hard to follow, so it would be great if it can be explained in simple words (i know its the abhidhamma section of the forum so sorry about that).

Regards.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:34 am

Zom wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:59 pm
The question asking about magga-vithī, but you showing us vipassanā-vithī, why? Because you never recite and memorize tipitaka-pāli.
I'm showing you what is said about 4 paths and 4 fruits in the suttas. Nowhere there you will find another kind of explanation, like "one-moment-path". There is, for example, such thing as "a path to non-returning", and no way this is a "one mind moment", but instead this is a long period of time. This is very clear if you read what I cited carefully. The Buddha says: "the four pairs, the eight individuals — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world".
Abhidhamma also teach like that, what is the difference?
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:36 am

2600htz wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:14 am
a)Just to be clear: If a person follows abhidhamma, does he agree with the suttas provided by the user Zom? (or that person thinks its some later addition, a bad translation, or something like that).
He agrees with them.
2600htz wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:14 am
b)If a person follows abhidhamma, what does he think of the idea that in the suttas there appears to be a strong time difference between path and fruition? (to the extend that its even possible to talk about 8 kind of individuals).
Ābhidhammikas accept that there are eight kinds of individuals, but maintain that since path-attainment is followed immediately by fruition-attainment, four of the eight individuals don't last for very long.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:00 am

2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm
Hello:

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.
You can't not understand abhidhamma if you still be superficial.

In thailand the abhidhamma course need at least 7 years to study for the superficial course (I never graduated it). It takes a time to study more than bachelor sum with master degree. Many graduated doctrine degree, can not graduated this course, although they still trust in it because of the hard of abhidhamma.

I have been ordinate 6 years to study pāli, to recited and memorized some sutta. When I can answer all the sutta core, but I still can not answer the millions questions that were asked in mahāpaṭṭhāna, the 7th book of abhidhamma that contented just the questions for the other 6 books, because there are too much causes and effects to sum in abhidhamma.

For the genius person, I very recommend to study abhidhamma and pāli, you will have the unlimited questions to ask yourselves for your 10 lives.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:29 am

perkele wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:46 pm
Maybe theY can explain this. But I think I have to break it down into some simpler English for it to be understandable:

TheY, can you explain this?

Why is it this sequence:
1 lokiya-magga (long period)
2 lokuttara-magga (one moment)
3 phala (one moment)
(4 times... for sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahat)

Why not this?
1 lokuttara-magga (one moment)
2 lokiya-magga (long period)
3 phala (one moment)
(4 times... for sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahat)

Where is saddhanussari or dhammanussari (practicing to become sotapanna) in this sequence? (at which number?)

Thanks. :anjali:
Because the sutta-pāli, that I gave, told like that.

Why do you think that one can enlighten nibbāna (lokuttara-magga), before practicing (lokiya-magga)?


For more explanation:

To be sotāpanna-ariya:
  1. puthujana's lokiya-magga moments practicing sīla+concentration+insight-meditation to kill 1st-3rd of 10 saṅyojana->
  2. enlightening nibbāna moment = sotāpatti-lokuttara-magga perfect moment in killing these 3 saṅyojana = sotāpanna-puggala-course graduating ->
  3. enlightened nibbāna moment = sotāpatti-lokuttara-phala perfect moment in killed these 3 saṅyojana = sotāpanna-puggala-course graduated = professional sotāpanna career->
To be sakadāgāmi-ariya:
  1. sekkha-sotāpanna-ariya's lokiya-magga moments practicing sīla+concentration+insight-meditation to kill half of 4th-5th of 10 saṅyojana ->
  2. enlightening nibbāna moment = sakadāgāmi-lokuttara-magga perfect moment in killing half of these 2 saṅyojana = sakadāgāmi-puggala-course graduating ->
  3. enlightened nibbāna moment = sakadāgāmi-lokuttara-phala perfect moment in killed half of these 2 saṅyojana = sakadāgāmi-puggala-course graduated = professional sakadāgāmi career->
To be anāgāmi-ariya:
  1. sekkha-anāgāmi-ariya's lokiya-magga moments practicing sīla+concentration+insight-meditation to kill the left half of 4th-5th of 10 saṅyojana ->
  2. enlightening nibbāna moment = anāgāmi-lokuttara-magga perfect moment in killing the left half of these 2 saṅyojana = anāgāmi-puggala-course graduating ->
  3. enlightened nibbāna moment = anāgāmi-lokuttara-phala perfect moment in killed the left half of these 2 saṅyojana = anāgāmi-puggala-course graduated = professional anāgāmi career->
To be arahanta-ariya:
  1. sekkha-anāgāmi-ariya's lokiya-magga moments practicing sīla+concentration+insight-meditation to kill whole left 5th-10th of 10 saṅyojana ->
  2. enlightening nibbāna moment = arahatta-lokuttara-magga perfect moment in killing the whole left saṅyojana = arahanta-puggala-course graduating ->
  3. enlightened nibbāna moment = asekkha arahatta-lokuttara-phala perfect moment in killed the left half of these 2 saṅyojana = arahanta-puggala-course graduated = professional arahanta career->
  4. Thinking like sutta-pāli, that I gave.

Vocabulary:

lokiya=baby, foolish, with 10 saṅyojana.
lokuttara=perfect graduation.
4 lokiya-magga=4 school's sequence courses.
4 lokuttara=4 perfect graduation.
4 lokuttara-magga=4 of perfect killing moment in each path's saṅyojana, from this moment, each path's killing saṅyojana never arise anymore.
4 lokuttara-phala=perfect career with no more each path's killed saṅyojana. Each path's killed saṅyojana=specific saṅyojana can not re-arise anymore.
Sekkhā-ariya=student =sotāpatti-magga, sotāpatti-phala, sakadāgāmi-magga, sakadāgāmi-phala, anāgāmi-magga, anāgāmi-phala, arahatta-magga.
Asekkha-ariya = arahatta-phala = perfect in career, no need to study.
Puthujana=neither sekkhā nor asekkhā.
Ariya-puggala (paññatti) = magga+phala (reality).
Last edited by theY on Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

perkele
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by perkele » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:09 am

Okay, I understand this. Thanks.

But I have a question about dhammanusari, saddhanusari (practicing to become sotapanna, they belong to the 8 persons as mentioned in sutta MN 142 quoted by Zom).

At which point here in this list are dhammanusari/saddhanusari?
theY wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:29 am
To be sotāpanna-ariya:
  1. puthujana's lokiya-magga moments practicing sīla+concentration+insight-meditation to kill 1st-3rd of 10 saṅyojana->
  2. enlightening nibbāna moment = sotāpatti-lokuttara-magga perfect moment in killing these 3 saṅyojana = sotāpanna-puggala-course graduating ->
  3. enlightened nibbāna moment = sotāpatti-lokuttara-phala perfect moment in killed these 3 saṅyojana = sotāpanna-puggala-course graduated = professional sotāpanna career->
Is dhammanusari/saddhanusari at 1. or at 2. in the list?

And if it is at 2, how long time does it take from 2 to 3? Is it only one moment?

I think according to sutta MN 142 it can not be only one moment. It must be a longer period of time.

theY wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:29 am
Why do you think that one can enlighten nibbāna (lokuttara-magga), before practicing (lokiya-magga)?
Because with my understanding it goes this way:

1. I learn about Dhamma for the first time. I have faith and I am convinced this is the right way. (only one moment)
2. I try to practice. (many many years)
3. Maybe some day I become sotapanna. (only one moment, maybe in the future)

If we say, lokuttara-magga is one moment, and phala is also one moment, and lokuttara-magga and phala happen one moment after another, then from my perspective lokuttara-magga (one moment) + phala (one moment) = one moment.


How long is one moment?

For me 1 moment + 1 moment = 1 moment (I have diploma in mathematics).
It makes no difference. We cannot see the difference between one moment or two moments.
So why do we have two words (lokuttara-magga and lokuttara-phala), when they are only one moment and another moment = 1 moment?


I think it would make more sense in this way:
1. lokuttara-magga - hearing about Dhamma for the first time and believing this is the right way without any doubt (one moment of faith that cannot be destroyed; but still not started or done any work)
2. lokiya-magga - doing the work: practicing sīla+concentration+insight-meditation to kill 1st-3rd of 10 saṅyojana
3. lokuttara-phala - finally, after practicing for a long time: perfect moment of understanding

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robertk
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by robertk » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:58 am

2600htz wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:14 am
robertk wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:47 pm
2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm
Hello:

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.
Which part needs explaining?
Hello Robert:

a)Just to be clear: If a person follows abhidhamma, does he agree with the suttas provided by the user Zom? (or that person thinks its some later addition, a bad translation, or something like that).

b)If a person follows abhidhamma, what does he think of the idea that in the suttas there appears to be a strong time difference between path and fruition? (to the extend that its even possible to talk about 8 kind of individuals).

Sorry if it was already explained, but in previous posts there was so much pali terminology and concepts that it was hard to follow, so it would be great if it can be explained in simple words (i know its the abhidhamma section of the forum so sorry about that).

Regards.
Ven. Dhammanado has already explained very well but I add more.
The Abhidhamma and suttas and also the Commentaries are in perfect agreement.
So first what is a being? For the one who misunderstands the suttas - which use conventional language at times- they think that there is a person who is born and lives a long or short time and then dies. But in reality there is only nama and rupa arising and ceasing - no human at all.


The dispeller of Delusion (pali text society) trans. Bhikku Nanamoli:
page 121, volume1:
"this division too should be known, namely momentary death (khanika-
marana),
conventional death (samutti marana) and death as cutting
off (samuccheda-marana)
also path of purification xliii “
There are three kinds of death: death as
cutting off, momentary death, and conventional death. Death as cutting off belongs
to those whose cankers are exhausted (and are Arahants). Momentary death is
that of each consciousness of the cognitive series beginning with life-continuum
consciousness, which arise each immediately on the cessation of the one preceding.
Conventional death is that of all (so-called) living beings

So yes there are eight pairs but( as explained by ven. Dhammanando) the 4 of path moment are so momentary. The other 4 are also just as momentary but often/usually that type can keep rearising again and again- until the next path moment..
And f course sometimes we see that a putthujana goes through the various stages almost instantly- one moment stopattimagga, the fruit of, then sakagami etc etc.
as this is such a fundamental issue I would be happy to add more if you have questions.

2600htz
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by 2600htz » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:29 pm

Hello:

Thanks for the answers.
One more question:

-Only the fruition moment can keep re-arising over and over?, the path moment can´t?
(Im trying to match what its being explained here with (MN 148) and (SN 48.18) )


Regards.

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robertk
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by robertk » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:30 pm

Hi,
It is not that the fruition keeps rearising but that once the fruition arises then for every moment after fruition ( until the next path) one is still a sotapanna and so on..

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:46 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:22 am
Coëmgenu wrote:"The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment."

What does the title of this thread mean? This belief in Abhidhamma is more often criticized than praised on Buddhist internet forums. I would like provide a counterbalance to that, ideally with this thread. I would like to see an Abhidhammika's insider-perspective on these two questions, more specifically:

1) "why" does the arising of the four paths endure for only one mind-moment, as in, how is this explained to occur?

and 2) what does this mean for practitioners?

and, if you will forgive me to be greedy for information, where can I find relevant sections of the Abhidhammatthasaṇgaha, or another text you would advise, that deal with this?

Thank you for your time :anjali: .
Can you quote the passage in the Abhidhamma where this is stated, please?
Can you also quote a criticism that has been leveled at this statement?

I would like to see the context of both so I can further understand what the criticisms are all about.

Thanks.......
Alas, I cannot link you to such things, because I myself am in the process of trying to figure out exactly why the sutta-followers have issues with the momentariness (they seem to just misunderstand it) that informs most of mainstream Buddhism historically extant, in both the śrāvaka & bodhisattva vehicles. The misunderstandings, the ones that I have seen at least, seem to generally correlate around the notion that momentariness necessarily leads to a loss in object permanence in the worldviews of those to uphold it.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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