The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

[Kusala]

Regarding the debate of whether he was Mongoloid or Indo-Iranian,please remember that the Buddhist sutras were written 500 years after his death.
So it's highly possible that the Indian disciples decided to 'Indianised' him even though he's originally wasn't an Indo-Aryan by giving him a Sanskrit name etc.

There are many interesting debate at this link below and you can form your opinions on who is correct or wrong.

https://www.quora.com/Was-Gautama-Buddha-mongoloid

I would argue that the Buddhist oral tradition is just as reliable, if not more reliable than written traditions...

[Kusala]

Hi Kusala

"Kusala wrote:

Some Brahmins held the Buddha in high regard...the Brahmin, Cankti, for instance...

"...When this was said, the brahmin Cankī told those brahmins: “Now, sirs, hear from me why it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama, and why it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is well born on both sides, of pure maternal and paternal descent seven generations back, unassailable and impeccable in respect of birth. Since this is so, sirs, it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me; rather, it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth abandoning much gold and bullion stored away in vaults and depositories. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from the home life into homelessness while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessing of youth, in the prime of life.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama shaved off his hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and went forth from the home life into homelessness though his mother and father wished otherwise and wept with tearful faces. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is handsome, comely, and graceful, possessing supreme beauty of complexion, [167] with sublime beauty and sublime presence, remarkable to behold.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama is virtuous, with noble virtue, with wholesome virtue, possessing wholesome virtue. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is a good speaker with a good delivery; he speaks words that are courteous, distinct, flawless, and communicate the meaning. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is a teacher of the teachers of many. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is free from sensual lust and without personal vanity. Sirs, the recluse Gotama holds the doctrine of the moral efficacy of action, the doctrine of the moral efficacy of deeds; he does not seek any harm for the line of brahmins. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from an aristocratic family, from one of the original noble families..."

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... anki-sutta
--

Yes, this is very high regard, including the Buddha's appearance!But it does not imply the Buddha looks like an Aryan person: '... a black-haired ...'
[/b]
Regards,

Thomas

I don't think hair color is a determining factor. The "Blonde, Blue Eyed" Nazi Ideal probably isn't what the historical Aryans looked like. We have to look at other clues. The Buddha was tall, blue eyed...these attributes are very good clues...

How Europeans evolved white skin http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/ ... white-skin



"...the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe...The Yamnaya have the greatest genetic potential for being tall of any of the populations, which is consistent with measurements of their ancient skeletons..."


Thousands of horsemen may have swept into Bronze Age Europe, transforming the local population http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/ ... population

"Europeans are the descendants of at least three major migrations of prehistoric people. First, a group of hunter-gatherers arrived in Europe about 37,000 years ago. Then, farmers began migrating from Anatolia (a region including present-day Turkey) into Europe 9000 years ago, but they initially didn’t intermingle much with the local hunter-gatherers because they brought their own families with them. Finally, 5000 to 4800 years ago, nomadic herders known as the Yamnaya swept into Europe..."


Genetic Study Reveals Origin of India's Caste System https://www.livescience.com/38751-genet ... igins.html

"Moorjani's past research revealed that all people in India trace their heritage to two genetic groups: An ancestral North Indian group originally from the Near East and the Caucasus region, and another South Indian group that was more closely related to people on the Andaman Islands."

[Kusala]

A samana is someone who lives in poverty. They do not wear cosmetics, jewelery, or fancy clothing. They do not bathe a lot. They wear just about the most basic clothing possible, a robe, often made of discarded rags and whatnot. They do not even sit on high chairs. Their food an shelter is by default meager. They do not enjoy entertainment, women, slaves, food at the wrong time, etc. They do not raise a family.

I think for all of these reasons it is easy to see why a Brahman, unaware of the attainments and nobility of the Buddha, would call a samana an outcaste. Being a samana is basically being a bum. A bum who is dedicated to sila and jhana, but still a bum.

The Brahmans were aware of the nobility of the Buddha. I think it had a lot more to do with fear. The samanas and brahmins were competing with one another, then came along a Kashirtya nobleman turned sadhu/samana to challenge them...

By the way, just look at this sadhu with piercing blue eyes...

[Dharmic]

Hi,

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 1-piya.pdf

Brahmins of the Dha­nañjānī clan believed that they were superior to other Brahmins. Bharādvāja, a Brahmin of this group, called his wife vasalī because she followed the Buddha.It is important to note the Brahmin used the word vasalī(m. vasala) for woman of his own clan.(Brahmins are divided into many sub-groups and practice endogamy within their sub-groups.)

[thomaslaw]

It seems the term Vasala 'outcaste' used in Sn 1.7 Vasala-sutta means:

"To the Brahmana the Buddha was an 'outcaste' because, as a Sramana, he accepted food from anyone"
(see Choong Mun-keat, 2009, 'A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Brahmana Samyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on the priestly Brahmanas', Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 19 (3): p. 375, n. 9).

Thomas

[Saengnapha]

The Sakya clan was a nomadic group with Scythian origins that swooped down from Central Asia into Afghanistan, Pakistan, NW India in about 6th BCE. One of the more interesting books that deals with the subject of origin is Greek Buddha. The book attempts to link up the Scythian and Greek philosophical schools with the Buddha's path of analysis, reason, and logic as being Scythian originated. Very interesting reading.

[Dhammanando]

The Sakya clan was a nomadic group with Scythian origins that swooped down from Central Asia into Afghanistan, Pakistan, NW India in about 6th BCE. One of the more interesting books that deals with the subject of origin is Greek Buddha. The book attempts to link up the Scythian and Greek philosophical schools with the Buddha's path of analysis, reason, and logic as being Scythian originated. Very interesting reading.

Have you seen Stephen Batchelor's critique of Beckwith's thesis?

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 16.1189141

[ieee23]

The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

I don't see how it matters.

[Saengnapha]

The Sakya clan was a nomadic group with Scythian origins that swooped down from Central Asia into Afghanistan, Pakistan, NW India in about 6th BCE. One of the more interesting books that deals with the subject of origin is Greek Buddha. The book attempts to link up the Scythian and Greek philosophical schools with the Buddha's path of analysis, reason, and logic as being Scythian originated. Very interesting reading.

Have you seen Stephen Batchelor's critique of Beckwith's thesis?

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 16.1189141

No, I haven't. What does he say? Btw, you're link is to a pay site for the article.

[mikenz66]

Saengnapha

Btw, you're link is to a pay site for the article.

I don't think it's your intention, but your post could be interpreted as a complaint about posting links to copyright material. Unfortunately, most academic journals charge for access, and this is not something Ven Dhammanando can change. Some members, especially those associated with academic institutions, will be able to access the article via their library websites, so it will be helpful to them. Others can, at least, read the abstract.


Mike

[Dhammanando]

No, I haven't. What does he say?

It's a 22-page review, but I attach the first five pages, which should suffice with regard to Beckwith's Buddha-was-a-Scythian thesis, and hopefully won't exceed "fair use".

.

Batchelor.pdf

(446.73 KiB) Downloaded 118 times

.
And another, much shorter, review by Patrick Lambelet of the University of California, Santa Barbara:

Beckwith sets out to challenge traditional claims about the origins and development of Buddhism and to show that there was far more fluidity and cross-influence in relations between Indic, Greek, Central Asian, and Chinese cultures than scholars have generally assumed. The project is ambitious, and Beckwith makes a number of intriguing claims, but in taking on so much material across such a wide array of fields, the book comes across as overly confident in its assertions, and sometimes superficial in its treatment.

Among the more provocative claims are that Pyrrho’s philosophy was largely derived from early Buddhist thought; that the Upaniṣadic teachings (and Jainism) did not exist prior to the advent of Buddhism; that the Buddha was of Scythian, and not Indian, origin (his name being Śākamuni, “Sage of the Scythians,” rather than Śākyamuni, the “Sage of the Śākyas”); and that Buddhism may have been directly influenced by Chinese and Central Asian thought. We even have an appendix that asks if Buddhism and Pyrrhonism are both Greek in origin. Perhaps the most compelling argument is the demonstration of similarities between Pyrrho’s philosophical teachings—which had little in common with other contemporaneous Greek schools—and early Buddhist notions of the trilakṣaṇa, or three characteristics (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and no-self). However, arguments based on etymological speculations, such as the claim that the name Gautama may have been a derivation of the name Lao Tzu, are less convincing. The sheer scope of the project—encompassing philosophy, philology, history, and archaeology across a broad cultural range—is often disorienting, and ends up overreaching, even if many of the questions are well worth exploring in more depth. For scholars interested in the cultural intersections of philosophy and religion, the book suggests fascinating possibilities, but leaves the reader wishing for more focus and clarity.

[JiWe2]

The primary piece of evidence that Beckwith provides for the Buddha being
Scythian is that the epithet Śakamuni, in its Gāndhārī spelling, could be inter-
preted to mean ‘Sage of the Sakas’, i.e. an eastern branch of the Scythian people,
rather than the usual ‘Sage of the Sakyans’, i.e. a clan that lived on the border of
present day Nepal and India (a tradition ‘full of chronological and other insuper-
able problems’). From this speculation, we jump to the confident assertion that
‘the Buddha is the only Indian holy man before early modern times who bears
an epithet explicitly identifying him as a non-Indian, a foreigner’ (39)

-Stephen Batchelor's review of "Greek Buddha".

Some well-known indologists seem to like this śākya = śaka speculation:

Śākya is derived from Śaka, one of the principal names of Iranian steppe nomads. Its association with the name Paṇḍu [="white, pale"] is an additional hint of the Iranian origin of the Pāṇḍavas.

-Asko Parpola, 2015, The Roots of Hinduism: The Early Aryans and the Indus Civilization

2. The Sakya have a number of Iranoid links and customs. Briefly:

The name of the Buddha's clan, the Sakya (Skt. s'aakya), cannot be
separated from the designation of the northern Iranian Saka (Skt.
S'aka) hat entered India only after c. 140 BE, via Sistan.

The name, as well as that of some Late Vedic kings and noblemen,
Balhika Pratipiiya and perhaps Cakra Sthapati, recall the Iranian
countries Baaxdhii/Balh (Bactria) and Caxra.

Further, the Sakya, Malla, etc. built high grave mounds, such as the
one for the Buddha. These remind of Central Asian grave mounds (kurgan).

[...etc.]

Taken together, these points tend to indicate that there was some
Iranian influence in Bihar in Late Vedic times. However, by the time
of the Buddha, the Iranoid character of the Sakya, by and large,
seemed to have dissipated. They appeared just like any other eastern
oligarchic tribe and actually claimed descent from the OkkAAka
(IkSvaaku) kings of Ayodhya.

-Michael Witzel's message, 2010, in the link that Dmytro gave earlier
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indo-Eura ... sage/13470

If this śākya = śaka speculation is correct, keeping it for a clan name is quite natural:

"Many East Iranian tribes named themselves Arya ‘noble’, as the Vedic Aryas
and the Persian-Achaemenids. This nomination might not have reflected the self-
consciousness of a gigantic Aryan unity, but rather it must have been a relic of
the common origin of the tribes that had emerged from this unity. Saka, the other
self-designation of East Iranians, means ‘the strong’ (Bailey 1958: 133)."

"Pastoral tribes were very mobile and it is therefore impossible to outline the
borders of their territory. But the ethnic consciousness of ancient kinship is
reflected not only in the self-definition common for all Indo-Iranians – Arya, but
also in the general term Saka which was used by Strabo to describe the region of
Sakasena in West Iran."

-Elena E. Kuzmina, 2007, The Origin of the Indo-Iranians

[Dhammanando]

Bronkhorst's review of Beckwith (no paywall this time!).

Beckwith is aware that in his understanding of early Buddhism he differs from most scholars. Most scholars think Buddhism arose in the same region as Jainism and Ajivikism, approximately at the same time. Buddhism and Jainism (and to some extent Ajivikism) are generally looked upon as responses to a shared problem, linked to the belief in rebirth and karmic retribution. For Beckwith, on the other hand, it is important to show that Buddhism, Jainism and Ajivikism did not originate in the same region at the same time, and he goes to great lengths trying to prove this. Consider what he says about Jainism (p. 160):

In the Jainist view, Mahāvīra, the founder of the Jains, was a contemporary of the Buddha, and they knew each other, as did the founders of the other great ancient Indian sects. This is a wonderful story … Nevertheless, scholars have demonstrated, piece by piece, in many studies of individual contradictory problems in Early Buddhism and other ancient Indian belief systems, that the other traditions have reconfigured themselves so as to be as old as Buddhism, or in some cases, as with the Jains, even older. They demonstrate as clearly as anyone could have done that the story of the Buddha is the oldest of the lot. Although some may wonder why the non-Buddhists made such claims, there are … many good reasons for them to want to imitate the Buddhists’ success.

This passage contains a rather elementary mistake. It describes the situation the wrong way round: the claim that the Buddha and Mahāvīra were contemporaries is not made in Jaina, but in Buddhist texts. This, one would think, should have an effect on Beckwith’s conclusions. In spite of this, he states …

https://www.academia.edu/25308643/Appen ... _Alexander

[Saengnapha]

Thanks to the above posters for the interesting links to reviews and critical analysis of Beckwith's book, Greek Buddha. Granted, that many historian/scholars have a message or concept that they are trying to sell. Beckwith was 'brave' enough to put forth his imaginative views based on scanty material that can't possibly be verified through historical records. Without debating the age of Jainism vs Buddhism, etc., there still remains two interesting possibilities that Beckwith touches upon, that the historical Buddha was of Scythian descent, as was the tetralemma that Pyrrho based his philosophical school on. Beckwith seems to think that the tetralemma was a feature of Scythian philosophy that influenced Greek thinkers. If indeed, Buddha was of Scythian origin, the tetralemma could indeed be part of his cultural background.

All of this is speculation, of course. Even if the above was proven to be true, it would change nothing but the historical records and the toilets would still need cleaning!

[Kusala]

The Buddha, being from Nepal, was of the Mongoloid race. The Kirats were the ruling people of ancient Nepal:

Kirata Kingdom (Kirat) in Sanskrit literature and Hindu mythology refers to any kingdom of the Kirata people, who were dwellers mostly in the Himalayas (mostly eastern Himalaya). They took part in the Kurukshetra War along with Parvatas (mountaineers) and other Himalayan tribes. They were widespread in the folds and valleys of Himalayas in Nepal and Bhutan, and also migrated to Indian states of Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal, Darjeeling (West Bengal), Assam and Tripura including west mountain of Pakistan. Kirata dynasty was established by king Yalamber...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirata_Kingdom

This is what the Buddha would look like if he were alive today:

Blue eyed Nepali Sadhu.