On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Garrib
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Garrib » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:05 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 pm

But, I just told you what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara. You have to understand that your own mind, which is conditioned, is not capable of freeing itself of samsara. Everything you do is a product of this conditioning and the outcome works against what you are trying to achieve. Look at all the time you've put into doing what you've been doing and see that nothing has really changed very much. Maybe your behavior has changed, which is alright, but is not the end of samsara. All of these practitioners you know are in the same boat. All trying to free themselves from themselves. It may be a noble effort, but if falls short because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Your thinking is limited and deceiving you. UG tried continuously to point this out to people. Did anyone get it? Who knows? Not my concern. It's a total letting go, a surrender, a death of an illusion.
Did UG believe that physical death was the end of all experience?

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:25 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:18 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:18 pm

I think that these are musing from you and your friend.

I have no intention to do an extensive study of ugk's presentations.....but so far what I have seen of them (a couple of articles and less than an hour of video) it seems that he says that there is no way out of samsara and that this is at odds with what the buddha taught. If you can show something of his which might say otherwise I would be glad to be able to see it.
chownah
But, I just told you what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara. You have to understand that your own mind, which is conditioned, is not capable of freeing itself of samsara. Everything you do is a product of this conditioning and the outcome works against what you are trying to achieve. Look at all the time you've put into doing what you've been doing and see that nothing has really changed very much. Maybe your behavior has changed, which is alright, but is not the end of samsara. All of these practitioners you know are in the same boat. All trying to free themselves from themselves. It may be a noble effort, but if falls short because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Your thinking is limited and deceiving you. UG tried continuously to point this out to people. Did anyone get it? Who knows? Not my concern. It's a total letting go, a surrender, a death of an illusion.
I must have misunderstood your post. You said "I had an interesting conversation today with a friend " and "Both of us felt that no one could ".....and then you made a one paragraph post and I did not see any indication that you were changing from what you and your fiends were conversing about to what ugk presented.

So....if its not too much trouble could you bring a link to something which shows "what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara". So far with the little bit I have read (very little bit as I have said) it seems his message is that there is no way out.....so I would be interested in seeing where explains what "one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara".
chownah
Chownah, UG never says, per se, anything about samsara. He never used that word. Because we are on a Buddhist board, I am relating my experience of how UG's comments could fit in with the Buddha's teaching.

Here is just one quote from one of the books on UG. BTW, he never wrote anything. All are from recordings which were transcripted into books. I think the following relates to what you are asking about.

Quote from 'The Natural State': Whatever you do in the pursuit of truth or reality takes you away from your own very natural
state in which you always are. It's not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a
result of your effort. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express
itself. That is why I call this your natural state. You're always in that state. What prevents
what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the
wrong direction.
So all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that
consciousness. You may not like the word contamination but all that you consider sacred, holy
and profound is a contamination. There's nothing that you can do, it's not in your hands. This
is something which I can't give because you have it. It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which
you already have. There isn't anything to get from anybody. You have what I have. I say you
are there.

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:29 pm

Garrib wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:05 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 pm

But, I just told you what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara. You have to understand that your own mind, which is conditioned, is not capable of freeing itself of samsara. Everything you do is a product of this conditioning and the outcome works against what you are trying to achieve. Look at all the time you've put into doing what you've been doing and see that nothing has really changed very much. Maybe your behavior has changed, which is alright, but is not the end of samsara. All of these practitioners you know are in the same boat. All trying to free themselves from themselves. It may be a noble effort, but if falls short because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Your thinking is limited and deceiving you. UG tried continuously to point this out to people. Did anyone get it? Who knows? Not my concern. It's a total letting go, a surrender, a death of an illusion.
Did UG believe that physical death was the end of all experience?
A complicated question that he did talk about. You'd have to read what he said about his own 'death experience' in 'The Biology Of Enlightenment', by Mukunda Rao.

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Mkoll
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Mkoll » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:38 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Quote from 'The Natural State': Whatever you do in the pursuit of truth or reality takes you away from your own very natural
state in which you always are. It's not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a
result of your effort. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express
itself. That is why I call this your natural state. You're always in that state. What prevents
what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the
wrong direction.
So all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that
consciousness. You may not like the word contamination but all that you consider sacred, holy
and profound is a contamination. There's nothing that you can do, it's not in your hands. This
is something which I can't give because you have it. It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which
you already have. There isn't anything to get from anybody. You have what I have. I say you
are there.
It sounds like his view is very close to the "doctrine of non-causality" view described in MN 60:
A. "There are some contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view: 'There is no causality, no requisite condition, for the defilement of beings. Beings are defiled without causality, without requisite condition. There is no causality, no requisite condition, for the purification of beings. Beings are purified without causality, without requisite condition. There is no strength, no effort, no human energy, no human endeavor. All living beings, all life, all beings, all souls are powerless, devoid of strength, devoid of effort. Subject to the changes of fate, serendipity, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six great classes of birth.'
The sutta goes on to describe this view further:
A1. "Now, householders, of those contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — 'There is no cause, no requisite condition, for the defilement of beings... Subject to the changes of fate, serendipity, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six great classes of birth' — it can be expected that, shunning these three skillful activities — good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct — they will adopt & practice these three unskillful activities: bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable contemplatives & brahmans do not see, in unskillful activities, the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; nor in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

A2. "Because there actually is causality, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no causality' is his wrong view. Because there actually is causality, when he is resolved that 'There is no causality,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is causality, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no causality,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is causality, when he says that 'There is no causality,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who teach causality. Because there actually is causality, when he persuades another that 'There is no causality,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.

A3. "With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'If there is no causality, then — with the breakup of the body, after death — this venerable person has made himself safe. But if there is causality, then this venerable person — on the breakup of the body, after death — will reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Even if we didn't speak of causality, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable contemplatives & brahmans, this venerable person is still criticized in the here-&-now by the observant as a person of bad habits & wrong view: one who holds to a doctrine of non-causality.' If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a bad throw twice: in that he is criticized by the observant here-&-now, and in that — with the breakup of the body, after death — he will reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when poorly grasped & poorly adopted by him, covers (only) one side, and leaves behind the possibility of the skillful.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:24 am

Mkoll,

Because you interpret everything through someone else's words, whatever another may say in a different way will seem inaccurate or wrong. This is a basic problem that most seekers have. They hold up someone or something as The Truth, and compare everything else to that. Part of being honest with yourself is coming face to face with this fact. Somehow, each and every one of us must pass through the veil of words that is obscuring whatever this natural state is.

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Mkoll
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Mkoll » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:19 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:24 am
Mkoll,

Because you interpret everything through someone else's words, whatever another may say in a different way will seem inaccurate or wrong. This is a basic problem that most seekers have. They hold up someone or something as The Truth, and compare everything else to that. Part of being honest with yourself is coming face to face with this fact. Somehow, each and every one of us must pass through the veil of words that is obscuring whatever this natural state is.
I've heard this kind of supercilious "guru-language" before from the likes of the other Krishnamurti (Jiddu) and Osho both of whom I read and pondered quite extensively many years ago. I admit I was impressed, even hoodwinked, for a time. But I eventually understood it is not of any value to my spiritual path.

Image

But best of luck to you.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:42 am

Mkoll wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:19 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:24 am
Mkoll,

Because you interpret everything through someone else's words, whatever another may say in a different way will seem inaccurate or wrong. This is a basic problem that most seekers have. They hold up someone or something as The Truth, and compare everything else to that. Part of being honest with yourself is coming face to face with this fact. Somehow, each and every one of us must pass through the veil of words that is obscuring whatever this natural state is.
I've heard this kind of supercilious "guru-language" before from the likes of the other Krishnamurti (Jiddu) and Osho both of whom I read and pondered quite extensively many years ago. I admit I was impressed, even hoodwinked, for a time. But I eventually understood it is not of any value to my spiritual path.

Image

But best of luck to you.
That's why I said we have to get past the veil of words, UG's or the Buddha's. This is what most people are mired in. All hoodwinking is done by ourselves, not another. Let's not play the blame game and mine is better than yours game. Not that I think you are intentionally doing that, just saying. Thanks for the good wishes. :D

Garrib
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Garrib » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:44 am

We don't have to get past the veil of the Buddha's words, we need to understand them properly!!

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:54 am

Garrib wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:44 am
We don't have to get past the veil of the Buddha's words, we need to understand them properly!!
Same thing to me.

SamKR
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by SamKR » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:33 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:55 am

I had an interesting conversation today with a friend who also knew UG and we talked about this very issue of No Way Out. This was a common theme in UG's chats with friends, 'is there anything to be done?' Both of us felt that no one could come to the end of samsara by any act of their own will or any manipulation of mind or body, ie., meditation. The very impulse of resistance to your own present state must stop. This insight deepens and weakens the will, your desire to escape from what is, samsara. Samsara is just a name for your own condition. When this resistance disappears, this triggers the event of the natural state. In a sense, a complete letting go of all desire to be something else takes place. You have to struggle a lot to understand that your own struggle is futile. No path means the end of becoming. UG lived this as an example. This is not an heroic struggle. That is a romance novel. There is no victory or gain. It is simply the cessation of ignorance, the deception that you can do something about escaping your own misery. Misery being your ordinary life and all its strategies, philosophies, and tactics, to achieve enlightenment, awakening, ultimate truth, etc. It's a hard pill to swallow.
:goodpost:

While I find UG's communication approach distasteful I agree with the above as well as "natural state", non-resistance to "what is", and non-effort. The bottom line message is similar to that of JK as well as many neo-advaita and Zen followers, and it is in alignment with the intention of the Buddha's teaching.

It is so unfortunate that majority of orthodox Theravada community apparently misses it, dismisses the message, and gets entangled with attachment to various orthodox text-based views, thought based personal interpretations and consequent conceptual proliferation.

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DooDoot
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:38 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:26 am
U.G.
In a You Tube video, U.G. said "there is no such thing as transformation" (or similar). This seemed contrary to the teachings in the Pali suttas, which seem to clearly describe a state of transformation or purification once samadhi & selflessness are established, namely, the purification reflected in the various jhanas and the uprooting of the tendency to defilement from final insight. For example:
Then, bhikkhu, I have also taught the successive cessation of formations. For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. For one who has attained the second jhana, thought and examination have ceased. For one who has attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing have ceased. For one who has attained the base of the infinity of space, the perception of form has ceased. For one who has attained the base of the infinity of consciousness, the perception pertaining to the base of the infinity of space has ceased. For one who has attained the base of nothingness, the perception pertaining to the base of the infinity of consciousness has ceased. For one who has attained the base of neither-perception-nor-nonperception, the perception pertaining to the base of nothingness has ceased. For one who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased. For a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, lust has ceased, hatred has ceased, delusion has ceased.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn36.11
Did U.G. say there is just a static dullness of a bland equanimity when saying there is no transformation? Thanks

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:32 am

aflatun wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:45 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm
robertk wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:23 am
it would be interesting to.hear more about U.G....
Not sure what you would like to know. Is there something in particular?
Loaded question, but can you give a summary of his teachings based on your experience with him? I've watched some videos and while I find some things he says interesting, and his sometimes rough handling of his followers entertaining, I have to say I can't quite follow him!

And...How did he feel about your interest in Buddhism?
Aflatun,

A belated response to your post. Since this is a Buddhist board, I didn't want to introduce UG into it to dissuade anyone from Buddhist practice. UG never discouraged anyone from pursuing whatever they wanted. He simply talked about his own state, what happened to him, and the subsequent 'condition' that it left him in. When people brought him views of others, he would simply take them apart in his inimitable way to show you what you were attempting to do, why you were attempting to do it, and how your own desire was leading you in the wrong direction. It was never a matter of making more of an effort, or a different effort, or no effort. What he talked about was his own state, the natural state, where there was never any effort to be or become anything. His whole 'teaching', was how our attempts to do something about our state, our suffering, furthered the suffering because the tools we used were created by what he called 'the world-mind', which is conditioned and only interested in its own survival. Thought was the main tool he criticized as being part of the fabrication of world-mind and not capable of leading you away from this circular fabrication.

The inevitable question put to him was 'well what do we do if everything we know and experience is this world-mind that creates suffering?' His answer was there is nothing you can do. This was said not to depress you, but to awaken you. To free you from the wrong effort and the ideas that the world-mind imparts. He often told me that the first thing that has to stop is your seeking, that it is taking you in the wrong direction. You have to become disenchanted and dispassionate as the Buddha stated. Then there is the possibility of that moment that happened to him, that he called his 'calamity', which brought the whole house down.

For me, seeking is a sign that disenchantment and dispassion are not established. These seem to be conditions for awakening but they seem to come about only after exhausting all one's attempts at getting 'there'. UG often would say that 'there' is part of the world-mind's influence and has no reality to it. It simply doesn't exist. That when you discover that you have been fooling yourself, discover the deception, it is nothing like you ever imagined it to be.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by SarathW » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:25 am

For myself, he was the most honest man I have ever met
I knew (reading his books) about UGK for almost thirty years.
I never could understand his teaching except my conclusion was his teaching is an extension of Hinduism.
Unfortunately, I lost faith in him when I heard the news that he had an affair with his best friends wife.
I am not sure whether this is some sort of mudslinging.
But if it was true he was breaking the third precepts.
I personally will not take him as an enlightened person.
However, I am still open to investigating of his teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:35 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:25 am
For myself, he was the most honest man I have ever met
I knew (reading his books) about UGK for almost thirty years.
I never could understand his teaching except my conclusion was his teaching is an extension of Hinduism.
Unfortunately, I lost faith in him when I heard the news that he had an affair with his best friends wife.
I am not sure whether this is some sort of mudslinging.
But if it was true he was breaking the third precepts.
I personally will not take him as an enlightened person.
However, I am still open to investigating of his teaching.
No, No. You are confusing him with J. Krishnamurti. UG said many times that it was impossible for someone in the natural state to have sex. But, he never said anyone should stop having sex.

It's easy to confuse these two because of their names. UG knew JK, but cut ties with him many years before his 'calamity'.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by James Tan » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:48 am

:rofl:

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