The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by atipattoh »

Kabouterke wrote:.......... It would also probably be harder to find Visuddhimagga-style jhana practitioners who could consistently enter and emerge from the jhanas, in addition to being in a noisy setting with the fMRI pounding away in the background. ....
There is this Mahapurisa org, that if i am not mistaken, the site is managed by a person that had practice at Pa Auk monastery many yrs ago. You could try to invite him to participate. If i am not wrong, he is not a bhikkhu now (but i am unable to confirm that), good luck!

:anjali:
User avatar
cjmacie
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:49 am

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by cjmacie »

atipattoh wrote:
Kabouterke wrote:.......... It would also probably be harder to find Visuddhimagga-style jhana practitioners who could consistently enter and emerge from the jhanas, in addition to being in a noisy setting with the fMRI pounding away in the background. ....
There is this Mahapurisa org, that if i am not mistaken, the site is managed by a person that had practice at Pa Auk monastery many yrs ago. You could try to invite him to participate. If i am not wrong, he is not a bhikkhu now (but i am unable to confirm that), good luck!
Do you know what's in that site -- beyond the slick graphics and high-sounding words -- when one gives a username and password to enter "Pali Tipitaka Academy"?

Doesn't smell good to me.
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by atipattoh »

cjmacie wrote:
atipattoh wrote:
Kabouterke wrote:.......... It would also probably be harder to find Visuddhimagga-style jhana practitioners who could consistently enter and emerge from the jhanas, in addition to being in a noisy setting with the fMRI pounding away in the background. ....
There is this Mahapurisa org, that if i am not mistaken, the site is managed by a person that had practice at Pa Auk monastery many yrs ago. You could try to invite him to participate. If i am not wrong, he is not a bhikkhu now (but i am unable to confirm that), good luck!
Do you know what's in that site -- beyond the slick graphics and high-sounding words -- when one gives a username and password to enter "Pali Tipitaka Academy"?

Doesn't smell good to me.
Hi,
sorry, i wasn't aware that there is a need for password. I read a few pages on some of the articles without entering password.
I was hoping Kabouterke would write to the site owner and invite him to participate in the brain wave experiment.
If he is not a bhikkhu, there should be no vinaya rules prohibiting him from being involved, so can be a good possible candidate.
Just a proposal!

:anjali:
User avatar
Jojola
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:22 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Jojola »

I don't see how it's possible for a significant insight to arise in a mind that is enmeshing itself into the hindrances.
Regards,

- :heart:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha’s Teaching." - Nanavira Thera (1920-1965) :candle:
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2717
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by Zom »

How realistic is it for a lay person with a family, 9-5 job, kids and other commitment to really attain any level of Samahdi? Maybe I'm not ready to meditate.
If by "levels" you mean jhanas - then, unrealistic. Even for 99% of monastics. Jhana is "the fruit of ascetic life" (as said in DN2), the final step of the Noble Path, the threshold of nibbana. However, there's much more in samadhi training than jhanas. According to DN10 samadhi is a huge field of mental development prior to jhanic one. It starts with "controlling the faculties" which itself is an enormous and very hard undertaking, especially for lay person. However, right here (in this large field of Samadhi) you can reach certain visible results - like the heightened mindfulness/awareness (which itself is very helpful in Virtue Training part), ability to control thoughts, suppress inner speech/dialogue, attain mental calmness at will (or - remove anxiety), anger control, etc, etc. All this is attainable even by a lay person, and is the goal of practice for so called "secular buddhists", who don't believe in rebirth, kamma, hells/heavens, but do different meditative mental exercises just/only for these visible here-and-now "psychological" results.

Buddha said, however, that before one starts doing this, one should first accomplish (to a high degree) Morality Stage - Virtue Training, otherwise you'll get little from Samadhi training, because the latter is entirely based on the former. And again this is a very large and complicated field of practice. This is where most of lay buddhists put their efforts.
just seems paradoxical that because this life is so short and I could die any moment, that it is stressful when I get tired from studying or meditating too much to the point where I just stop for a while, guess I need to be kinder to myself and find a middle ground. I'm confident i will with experience.
This is normal for a beginner in Buddhism. However, many burn out because of heightened expectations and too much striving - and then even quit Buddhism altogether. Be careful here, don't press too hard.

I'll cite a nice passage by Ajahn Chah on this matter.

If we realize enlightenment in this lifetime, that's fine. If we have to wait until our next life, no matter. We have faith and unfaltering conviction in the Dhamma. Whether we progress quickly or slowly is up to our innate capabilities, spiritual aptitude, and the merit we've accumulated so far. Practising like this puts the heart at ease. It's like we're riding in a horse cart. We don't put the cart before the horse. Or it's like trying to plow a rice paddy while walking in front of our water buffalo rather than behind. What I'm saying here is that the mind is getting ahead of itself. It's impatient to get quick results. That's not the way to do it. Don't walk in front of your water buffalo. You have to walk behind the water buffalo.

It's just like that chilli plant we are nurturing. Give it water and fertilizer, and it will do the job of absorbing the nutrients. When ants or termites come to infest it, we chase them away. Doing just this much is enough for the chilli to grow beautifully on its own, and once it is growing beautifully, don't try to force it to flower when we think it should flower. It's none of our business. It will just create useless suffering. Allow it to bloom on its own. And once the flowers do bloom don't demand that it immediately produce chilli peppers. Don't rely on coercion. That really causes suffering! Once we figure this out, we understand what our responsibilities are and are not. Each has their specific duty to fulfill. The mind knows its role in the work to be done. If the mind doesn't understand its role, it will try to force the chilli plant to produce peppers on the very day we plant it. The mind will insist that it grow, flower, and produce peppers all in one day.

This is nothing but the second Noble Truth: craving causes suffering to arise. If we are aware of this Truth and ponder it, we'll understand that trying to force results in our Dhamma practice is pure delusion. It's wrong. Understanding how it works, we let go and allow things to mature according to our innate capabilities, spiritual aptitude and the merit we've accumulated. We keep doing our part. Don't worry that it might take a long time. Even if it takes a hundred or a thousand lifetimes to get enlightened, so what? However many lifetimes it takes we just keep practicing with a heart at ease, comfortable with our pace.
User avatar
Idappaccayata
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:54 pm

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by Idappaccayata »

Zom wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:46 pm
How realistic is it for a lay person with a family, 9-5 job, kids and other commitment to really attain any level of Samahdi? Maybe I'm not ready to meditate.
If by "levels" you mean jhanas - then, unrealistic. Even for 99% of monastics.
why do you think that? I've heard of many lay people getting into jhana. And many well regarded monks teach them how to do it, and verify they're doing it.
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2717
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by Zom »

why do you think that? I've heard of many lay people getting into jhana. And many well regarded monks teach them how to do it, and verify they're doing it.
Yes, many talks about jhanas, vipassanas, etc. This is a "modern trend" nowadays in Buddhism. But talking about a thing, or even "verifying" it - is not an actual attainment. If you are truly in jhanas, you should be able to show how you sit in bliss for many-many hours or even days without food and water, without standing up and changing posture. I haven't seen and heard about such a thing except one non-buddhist person widely known as "buddha-boy" (who, however, has lost all his meditative abilities, as it seems). 8-)
User avatar
Idappaccayata
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:54 pm

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by Idappaccayata »

Zom wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:30 pm
why do you think that? I've heard of many lay people getting into jhana. And many well regarded monks teach them how to do it, and verify they're doing it.
Yes, many talks about jhanas, vipassanas, etc. This is a "modern trend" nowadays in Buddhism. But talking about a thing, or even "verifying" it - is not an actual attainment. If you are truly in jhanas, you should be able to show how you sit in bliss for many-many hours or even days without food and water, without standing up and changing posture.
From my understanding, that would entail complete mastery of jhana. Which I agree is unlikely. But I don't think that implies that isn't impossible for many people to access at least first jhana quite regularly.

Do you have an sutta references to back up what youre claiming?
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2717
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by Zom »

From my understanding, that would entail complete mastery of jhana. Which I agree is unlikely. But I don't think that implies that isn't impossible for many people to access at least first jhana quite regularly.
Yes, this is a common answer - however, even "masters" can't show smth like that - those, who are supposed to have all jhanas for a long long time. This is why this argument about "at least 1 jhana regularly" is poor as well. I'd rather say - they (who claim about such attainments) attain some states of peaceful mind which they wrongly identify as the 1st jhana.
Do you have an sutta references to back up what youre claiming?
The idea that jhana (even 1st one) is not something that can be easily attained is there in the suttas, of course. 1st jhana is actually (or almost) the state of non-returning for a buddhist. This is the end of the path, very close to arahantship.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17234
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by DNS »

Zom wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:03 pm
Do you have an sutta references to back up what youre claiming?
The idea that jhana (even 1st one) is not something that can be easily attained is there in the suttas, of course. 1st jhana is actually (or almost) the state of non-returning for a buddhist. This is the end of the path, very close to arahantship.
But you still haven't provided any sutta support for that. I've heard that good proficiency in 4th jhana is required for non-returning, not 1st jhana.

Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta were highly proficient in jhanas (I know there is some debate about that but the suttas record proficiency in formless realms beyond the 4 form jhanas) but were not even stream-entrants. They taught the future Buddha up to realms of nothingness and the realm of neither perception nor non-perception.
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by samseva »

Zom wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:30 pm If you are truly in jhanas, you should be able to show how you sit in bliss for many-many hours or even days without food and water, without standing up and changing posture. I haven't seen and heard about such a thing except one non-buddhist person widely known as "buddha-boy" (who, however, has lost all his meditative abilities, as it seems). 8-)
That's a completely disproportionate view of what jhānas are. You're depicting just reaching the first jhāna as the feat of an experienced meditator who has probably mastered all the jhānas.
Zom wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:03 pm 1st jhana is actually (or almost) the state of non-returning for a buddhist. This is the end of the path, very close to arahantship.
First jhāna is not even close to arahantship; not even mastering the fourth jhāna would mean approaching arahantship. Being able to reach jhāna in no way means that you will develop wisdom, which is what is required to develop the path.

Seriously, reaching first jhāna isn't that difficult—mastery, routinly reaching it, and remaining in it are different things though (similar to other things). Considering it as a God-like feat is or will probably be detrimental to your meditation.
santa100
Posts: 6856
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by santa100 »

treyg21 wrote:Which I agree is unlikely. But I don't think that implies that isn't impossible for many people to access at least first jhana quite regularly.
While it's not impossible to attain 1st jhana, it's certainly not trivial at all to get there. As mentioned in a previous post, even for mundane disciplines, one has to put in at least 8 hours a day to really be considered a professional in his field. Spending a couple hours a day here and there certainly won't cut it. Another problem is about verifying those self-proclaimed attainments. Any meditator can claim anything s/he wants. This is in stark contrast to even a mundane discipline like martial arts, like judo. It's a 100% honest system where it's impossible for one to bullsh... once s/he's stepped onto the mat. For such mundane field, one'd have to spend thousands of hours day in, day out, sweating and even bleeding to master it. Mastering jhana, even the 1st one, is no less demanding than judo. If any, it'd be a lot more difficult. It only seems easy because unlike the judoka, there's simply no dojo mat there for the meditator to prove anything.
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by Mkoll »

I lean more toward Zom's and santa100's opinion on this.

A fair amount of people claim to have this or that jhana. Yet there are often big differences in how they describe it and how to get there with the most notable being between so-called Visuddhimagga style jhana (generally more deep) and sutta style jhana (generally more aware). And there are differences within those camps too. So clearly a lot of people are missing the mark.

I think what underlies a lot of these claims is not sammasamadhi but rather a desire to "have" an attainment and further, the desire to proclaim it to other people. There can be a lot of ego and desire for attention involved in this process. It's the same process that gets people to claim this or that stage of enlightenment. I'm not saying that everyone who makes a claim of Noble attainment is deluding themselves, just that the majority likely are. 8-)
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by samseva »

santa100 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:01 am [...]
Mkoll wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:03 am I lean more toward Zom's and santa100's opinion on this.

A fair amount of people claim to have this or that jhana. Yet there are often big differences in how they describe it and how to get there with the most notable being between so-called Visuddhimagga style jhana (generally more deep) and sutta style jhana (generally more aware). And there are differences within those camps too. So clearly a lot of people are missing the mark.

I think what underlies a lot of these claims is not sammasamadhi but rather a desire to "have" an attainment and further, the desire to proclaim it to other people. There can be a lot of ego and desire for attention involved in this process. It's the same process that gets people to claim this or that stage of enlightenment. I'm not saying that everyone who makes a claim of Noble attainment is deluding themselves, just that the majority likely are. 8-)
I agree regarding the definitions of jhāna according to the Suttas and according to the Visuddhimagga, the latter being much more strict. Still, the Suttas have much more credibility and while both definitions should be taken into account, the Sutta jhānas should be seen as the most correct (being from the Suttas and taught by the Buddha). And I am also of the opinion that mastery of even the first jhāna is not an easy task at all.

Still, there are so many accounts of people having reached the first jhāna (reached, not mastered), that defining it as "having to meditate for multiple days without eating or drinking water" or "having to meditate for 8 hours every single day" is absurd. And not only Buddhists reach jhāna, since jhāna is not Buddhist (jhāna is just a mental process).

Anyway, I think you, Zom and santa100 have already made up your minds. I guess you can keep believing that the first jhāna is nearly impossible to attain and that you would have to practice 8 hours per day for months or even years—and also that everyone you cross paths with claiming to have just reached the first jhāna (not mastered) are completely deluding themselves (I guess maybe they could be, but there is also the many people who reach jhāna who are not making claims). However, with the belief that jhāna is so difficult to reach, how motivating is it to meditate? Maybe you'll eventually reach the first jhāna (maybe just reach, not master), but with the belief that such achievements are nearly impossible, you would probably be deluding yourself?
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by Mkoll »

samseva wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:42 am
santa100 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:01 am [...]
Mkoll wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:03 am I lean more toward Zom's and santa100's opinion on this.

A fair amount of people claim to have this or that jhana. Yet there are often big differences in how they describe it and how to get there with the most notable being between so-called Visuddhimagga style jhana (generally more deep) and sutta style jhana (generally more aware). And there are differences within those camps too. So clearly a lot of people are missing the mark.

I think what underlies a lot of these claims is not sammasamadhi but rather a desire to "have" an attainment and further, the desire to proclaim it to other people. There can be a lot of ego and desire for attention involved in this process. It's the same process that gets people to claim this or that stage of enlightenment. I'm not saying that everyone who makes a claim of Noble attainment is deluding themselves, just that the majority likely are. 8-)
I agree regarding the definitions of jhāna according to the Suttas and according to the Visuddhimagga, the latter being much more strict. Still, the Suttas have much more credibility and while both definitions should be taken into account, the Sutta jhānas should be seen as the most correct (being from the Suttas and taught by the Buddha). And I am also of the opinion that mastery of even the first jhāna is not an easy task at all.

Still, there are so many accounts of people having reached the first jhāna (reached, not mastered), that defining it as "having to meditate for multiple days without eating or drinking water" or "having to meditate for 8 hours every single day" is absurd. And not only Buddhists reach jhāna, since jhāna is not Buddhist (jhāna is just a mental process).
I read the texts as saying that right concentration (sammasamadhi), i.e. the 4 jhanas, is distinctly Buddhist because it is dependent upon the other limbs of the path—see MN 117. The means by which the mind does or experiences anything can be seen as a mental process, so saying jhana is a mental process is essentially a meaningless statement.
Anyway, I think you, Zom and santa100 have already made up your minds. I guess you can keep believing that the first jhāna is nearly impossible to attain and that you would have to practice 8 hours per day for months or even years—and also that everyone you cross paths with claiming to have just reached the first jhāna (not mastered) are completely deluding themselves (I guess maybe they could be, but there is also the many people who reach jhāna who are not making claims). However, with the belief that jhāna is so difficult to reach, how motivating is it to meditate? Maybe you'll eventually reach the first jhāna (maybe just reach, not master), but with the belief that such achievements are nearly impossible, you would probably be deluding yourself?
"Leaning toward" != "already made up my mind" by any stretch of the imagination. I never said it was nearly impossible. And I explicitly said not everyone who makes a claim is deluded.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately misrepresenting my position to troll me or you just need to read what I wrote more carefully while being mindful not to conflate my position with that of others. Or something else. :shrug:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Post Reply