the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:17 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:59 am
And yet the Sunna Sutta clearly says no self
No it says, empty of a self.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:20 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:17 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:59 am
And yet the Sunna Sutta clearly says no self
No it says, empty of a self.
Same thing. If the world is empty of a self, then there is no self in the world.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Saengnapha
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:53 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:30 am
but if nirvana is annihilation, you would be insane to seek it

rather this teaching should lead to sanity
Yes, that's exactly right. But, nirvana is not annihilation. This would be nihilism and an erroneous belief in what the teachings are saying. The Buddha constantly reiterates the point of not discerning anything apart from dependent origination as an alternative position. That is called emptiness which is neither self or not self, and so on.

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:37 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:20 am
Same thing. If the world is empty of a self, then there is no self in the world.
The difference is subtle.

You fail to appreciate the difference.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:20 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:20 am
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:17 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:59 am
And yet the Sunna Sutta clearly says no self
No it says, empty of a self.
Same thing. If the world is empty of a self, then there is no self in the world.
You may think it is the same thing but yet the sunna sutta does not clearly say no self as you have stated. Did you make a mistake?....or do you want to continue to dispute what the sunna sutta clearly says?
chownah

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:28 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:37 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:20 am
Same thing. If the world is empty of a self, then there is no self in the world.
The difference is subtle.
You fail to appreciate the difference.
There is no practical difference.

The Sunna Sutta says the world is empty of a self or anything pertaining to the world. So are you proposing a self outside the world? If so, some sutta support for this view would be useful.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Again the difference is subtle.
And the difference must be appreciated.

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:13 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm
Again the difference is subtle.
And the difference must be appreciated.
If you really think there is a practical difference, then explain it clearly what it is.
Buddha save me from new-agers!


Dinsdale
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:23 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:19 pm
On Self, No Self, and Not-self
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
You are avoiding a straightforward question ( again ).

The Sunna Sutta says: "the world is empty of a self, or anything pertaining to a self". What is the practical difference between that and "there is no self in the world"?

If you are proposing a self outside the world, then lets see some sutta passages which specifically support that view.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm

If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.

Dinsdale
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:28 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 pm
If Buddha cannot help you, I cannot.
:shrug:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:30 pm

There are three views. Self, no self, not-self.

Among those three, self and no self are extreme views.

Not-self is a middle view, between the extremes.

chownah
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:26 pm

The difference between saying there is no self and saying that everything I think of is not self is that it is possible for you to observe what you think of and determine that it is not self....your range of what you think of only includes the things you think of and it does not include the things which you do not think of. The things you do not think of are things which are out of range so it is not possible for you to determine if they are self or not.

IN summary: determening that there is no self is beyond range....determeing that you can not think of something which is self is within range since you can simply just sit and think of things and verify that you can not think of something which is self.

Not very artfully expressed and probably technically incorrect but I hope you get the idea.
chownah

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:21 pm

Do not speak thus. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One; for it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One.

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