Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor

[pilgrim]

In the context of Buddhism and the 1st precept, when a woman undergoes an abortion, who kills the fetus? The mother or the doctor?
Commentaries say the 5 conditions must be fulfilled for the precept of killing to be broken. These are:
1. The being must be alive.
2. There must be the knowledge that it is a live being.
3. There must be an intention to cause death.
4. An act must be done to cause death.
5. There must be death, as the result of the said act.

Going by these conditions, it would appear the doctor kills; the mother only allows him to do so.

[ieee23]

This is the 3rd thread I've seen recently pertaining to abortion, an issue not emphasized in Buddhism nearly as much as in some sectors of Western Christianity. Given that, and the frequency of these threads, it makes me wonder, whether consciously or not, if some people have an ax to grind with women. No disrespect nor insult meant to anyone.

[pilgrim]

This is the 3rd thread I've seen recently pertaining to abortion, an issue not emphasized in Buddhism nearly as much as in some sectors of Western Christianity. Given that, and the frequency of these threads, it makes me wonder, whether consciously or not, if some people have an ax to grind with women. No disrespect nor insult meant to anyone.

Most threads on abortion lie within the context of whether or when women break the precept. I'm suggesting that this fundamental presumption may be flawed as it is the doctor who appears to be more involved in killing.

[aflatun]

If the doctor or mother do not believe that #2 applies (i.e. the fetus is not yet a 'living being'), #3-#5 don't apply, as they see it

That aside, even if the doctor performs the abortion, its at the request of the mother, she's "hired him" to do the killing I suppose

If the abortion is affected pharmacologically, the doctor might prescribe the pill but the mother takes it

Its complicated.

[Dhammanando]

Going by these conditions, it would appear the doctor kills; the mother only allows him to do so.

I think the fourth factor, upakkama, would be better rendered as "making an effort".

When a person orders someone, hires someone, or hints to someone to kill a living being, both commit pāṇātipāta. The one who commissions the killing fulfils the factor of effort by the giving of the order; the hireling fulfils it by carrying it out. According to the commentaries the weightier kamma is that of the person giving the order.

Outside of the People's Republic of China (where many women are made to have abortions against their will) the mother's participation will normally consist in rather more than just allowing the doctor's action.

[binocular]

This is the 3rd thread I've seen recently pertaining to abortion, an issue not emphasized in Buddhism nearly as much as in some sectors of Western Christianity. Given that, and the frequency of these threads, it makes me wonder, whether consciously or not, if some people have an ax to grind with women. No disrespect nor insult meant to anyone.

Has it ever occured to you that these threads could be prompted by something else?
Such as concern for women and the unborn?
Or questioning the mainstream societal dictate "You must have sex, or there's something wrong with you and you should see a doctor"?

[robertk]

A monk, out of a desire that the man not suffer long, asked an executioner to make sure the axe swing was fast and solid : the executioner did put in a little extra effort. The monk was parijika.

In another case the executioner ignored the monks request: not parijika.

[binocular]

Its complicated.

It is, inasmuch we're talking about living up to the rules of a society in which people are expected to engage in sex, not give birth to unwanted children, and in which 100% reliable contraceptive methods do not exist.

[aflatun]

Its complicated.

It is, inasmuch we're talking about living up to the rules of a society in which people are expected to engage in sex, not give birth to unwanted children, and in which 100% reliable contraceptive methods do not exist.

I don't think this has anything to do with the rules of society, it has to do with a conflict between the rules of penis, vagina and cortical signaling

[2600htz]

Hello:

Well, u have the story of king Bimbisara.
His son was never able to attain nibbana, even while being extremely devoted to the buddha, and eventually was reborn in a hell realm, just for arranging his fathers death (in the same way some mother arranges with a doctor an abortion).


Regards.

[davidbrainerd]

In the context of Buddhism and the 1st precept, when a woman undergoes an abortion, who kills the fetus? The mother or the doctor?

Well in the Vinaya, in the Pāṭimokkha, Any monk who kills someone, or seeks an assassin, or talks someone into suicide, is considered defeated by Mara and expelled. So no distinction is understood between killing someone yourself and arranging for someone else to do it.

[binocular]

I don't think this has anything to do with the rules of society, it has to do with a conflict between the rules of penis, vagina and cortical signaling

Rules of penis, vagina and cortical signaling written by whom?

[Aloka]

..... the mainstream societal dictate "You must have sex, or there's something wrong with you and you should see a doctor"?

That doesn't appear to be the mainstream societal dictate where I live - and most people I know couldn't care less whether other people are having sex on not, they're too busy trying to earn a living and make ends meet financially, either for themselves or their families.

[Polar Bear]

I don't think this has anything to do with the rules of society, it has to do with a conflict between the rules of penis, vagina and cortical signaling

Rules of penis, vagina and cortical signaling written by whom?

Basic evolutionary drives/craving

[binocular]

..... the mainstream societal dictate "You must have sex, or there's something wrong with you and you should see a doctor"?

That doesn't appear to be the mainstream societal dictate where I live. Most people I know couldn't care less whether other people are having sex on not, they're too busy trying to earn a living and make ends meet financially, either for themselves or their families.

"You're still a virgin?!" -- why can people understand this as pejorative?