In the context of Buddhism and the 1st precept, when a woman undergoes an abortion, who kills the fetus? The mother or the doctor?
Commentaries say the 5 conditions must be fulfilled for the precept of killing to be broken. These are:
1. The being must be alive.
2. There must be the knowledge that it is a live being.
3. There must be an intention to cause death.
4. An act must be done to cause death.
5. There must be death, as the result of the said act.
Going by these conditions, it would appear the doctor kills; the mother only allows him to do so.
Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
This is the 3rd thread I've seen recently pertaining to abortion, an issue not emphasized in Buddhism nearly as much as in some sectors of Western Christianity. Given that, and the frequency of these threads, it makes me wonder, whether consciously or not, if some people have an ax to grind with women. No disrespect nor insult meant to anyone.
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
Most threads on abortion lie within the context of whether or when women break the precept. I'm suggesting that this fundamental presumption may be flawed as it is the doctor who appears to be more involved in killing.ieee23 wrote:This is the 3rd thread I've seen recently pertaining to abortion, an issue not emphasized in Buddhism nearly as much as in some sectors of Western Christianity. Given that, and the frequency of these threads, it makes me wonder, whether consciously or not, if some people have an ax to grind with women. No disrespect nor insult meant to anyone.
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
If the doctor or mother do not believe that #2 applies (i.e. the fetus is not yet a 'living being'), #3-#5 don't apply, as they see it
That aside, even if the doctor performs the abortion, its at the request of the mother, she's "hired him" to do the killing I suppose
If the abortion is affected pharmacologically, the doctor might prescribe the pill but the mother takes it
Its complicated.
That aside, even if the doctor performs the abortion, its at the request of the mother, she's "hired him" to do the killing I suppose
If the abortion is affected pharmacologically, the doctor might prescribe the pill but the mother takes it
Its complicated.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
I think the fourth factor, upakkama, would be better rendered as "making an effort".pilgrim wrote:Going by these conditions, it would appear the doctor kills; the mother only allows him to do so.
When a person orders someone, hires someone, or hints to someone to kill a living being, both commit pāṇātipāta. The one who commissions the killing fulfils the factor of effort by the giving of the order; the hireling fulfils it by carrying it out. According to the commentaries the weightier kamma is that of the person giving the order.
Outside of the People's Republic of China (where many women are made to have abortions against their will) the mother's participation will normally consist in rather more than just allowing the doctor's action.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
Has it ever occured to you that these threads could be prompted by something else?ieee23 wrote:This is the 3rd thread I've seen recently pertaining to abortion, an issue not emphasized in Buddhism nearly as much as in some sectors of Western Christianity. Given that, and the frequency of these threads, it makes me wonder, whether consciously or not, if some people have an ax to grind with women. No disrespect nor insult meant to anyone.
Such as concern for women and the unborn?
Or questioning the mainstream societal dictate "You must have sex, or there's something wrong with you and you should see a doctor"?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
A monk, out of a desire that the man not suffer long, asked an executioner to make sure the axe swing was fast and solid : the executioner did put in a little extra effort. The monk was parijika.
In another case the executioner ignored the monks request: not parijika.
In another case the executioner ignored the monks request: not parijika.
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
It is, inasmuch we're talking about living up to the rules of a society in which people are expected to engage in sex, not give birth to unwanted children, and in which 100% reliable contraceptive methods do not exist.aflatun wrote:Its complicated.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
I don't think this has anything to do with the rules of society, it has to do with a conflict between the rules of penis, vagina and cortical signaling
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
Hello:
Well, u have the story of king Bimbisara.
His son was never able to attain nibbana, even while being extremely devoted to the buddha, and eventually was reborn in a hell realm, just for arranging his fathers death (in the same way some mother arranges with a doctor an abortion).
Regards.
Well, u have the story of king Bimbisara.
His son was never able to attain nibbana, even while being extremely devoted to the buddha, and eventually was reborn in a hell realm, just for arranging his fathers death (in the same way some mother arranges with a doctor an abortion).
Regards.
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Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
Well in the Vinaya, in the Pāṭimokkha, Any monk who kills someone, or seeks an assassin, or talks someone into suicide, is considered defeated by Mara and expelled. So no distinction is understood between killing someone yourself and arranging for someone else to do it.
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
Rules of penis, vagina and cortical signaling written by whom?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
That doesn't appear to be the mainstream societal dictate where I live - and most people I know couldn't care less whether other people are having sex on not, they're too busy trying to earn a living and make ends meet financially, either for themselves or their families.
Last edited by Aloka on Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
Basic evolutionary drives/craving
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Re: Abortion - who kills? Mother or doctor
"You're still a virgin?!" -- why can people understand this as pejorative?Aloka wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:01 amThat doesn't appear to be the mainstream societal dictate where I live. Most people I know couldn't care less whether other people are having sex on not, they're too busy trying to earn a living and make ends meet financially, either for themselves or their families.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!