Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Dinsdale
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:56 am

Saengnapha wrote:binocular.....mindfulness to me is the simple noting or knowing of what you are doing at any given moment. If you are walking, you note that you are walking. If you are thinking, you note that you are thinking. There is no judgement in this.
Yes, it is basically paying attention, noticing, discovering. I'm a bit of an amateur naturalist ( not naturist! ) and for me it's a rather similar activity.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Bundokji » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:31 am

Can we simply say "to see ourselves objectively"?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Mr Man
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Mr Man » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:22 am

How about observation with non-proliferation?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:26 am

Greetings,
Mr Man wrote:How about observation with non-proliferation?
:clap:

The best way to do this, IMO, is to see 'arising'.

Seeing 'arising', you know how ephemeral the arisen is, and the inclination to grasp and proliferate from it diminishes.

MN1 and any sutta that depicts the vortex relationship between nama and rupa is useful in this context.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:32 am

Bundokji wrote:Can we simply say "to see ourselves objectively"?
This would not really be accurate as there is no self to observe. You can only be mindful of a process like thinking, feeling, or angry, sad. You can also be mindful of a kind of lack of a process such as stillness. Observing ourselves is really a figure of speech.

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Bundokji » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:47 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Bundokji wrote:Can we simply say "to see ourselves objectively"?
This would not really be accurate as there is no self to observe. You can only be mindful of a process like thinking, feeling, or angry, sad. You can also be mindful of a kind of lack of a process such as stillness. Observing ourselves is really a figure of speech.
I agree that the self is a convention and that there is no self to observe, but what does that change if i may ask? does that make suffering less real?

So, would it be wrong to conclude that relying on the thought "not self" becomes a mere ritual? Why not observe the "every day common sense" objectively instead?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:07 am

Bundokji wrote:
Saengnapha wrote:
Bundokji wrote:Can we simply say "to see ourselves objectively"?
This would not really be accurate as there is no self to observe. You can only be mindful of a process like thinking, feeling, or angry, sad. You can also be mindful of a kind of lack of a process such as stillness. Observing ourselves is really a figure of speech.
I agree that the self is a convention and that there is no self to observe, but what does that change if i may ask? does that make suffering less real?

So, would it be wrong to conclude that relying on the thought "not self" becomes a mere ritual? Why not observe the "every day common sense" objectively instead?
Relying on the thought of something that is not there cannot be helpful. The actual arising which constitutes the everyday common sense, name and form, is what is to be noted. This helps break the attachment to what is arising which is the cause of suffering. Doesn't this make sense?

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Bundokji » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:21 am

Saengnapha wrote:Relying on the thought of something that is not there cannot be helpful. The actual arising which constitutes the everyday common sense, name and form, is what is to be noted. This helps break the attachment to what is arising which is the cause of suffering. Doesn't this make sense?
You don't rely on something that is not there. It is there whether you are willing to admit it or not. My whole point is, how the very act of observing can become a game we play with ourselves.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:09 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Saengnapha wrote:Relying on the thought of something that is not there cannot be helpful. The actual arising which constitutes the everyday common sense, name and form, is what is to be noted. This helps break the attachment to what is arising which is the cause of suffering. Doesn't this make sense?
You don't rely on something that is not there. It is there whether you are willing to admit it or not. My whole point is, how the very act of observing can become a game we play with ourselves.
What is there?

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Bundokji » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:32 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Bundokji wrote:
Saengnapha wrote:Relying on the thought of something that is not there cannot be helpful. The actual arising which constitutes the everyday common sense, name and form, is what is to be noted. This helps break the attachment to what is arising which is the cause of suffering. Doesn't this make sense?
You don't rely on something that is not there. It is there whether you are willing to admit it or not. My whole point is, how the very act of observing can become a game we play with ourselves.
What is there?
Self view
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:53 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Saengnapha wrote:
Bundokji wrote:Relying on the thought of something that is not there cannot be helpful. The actual arising which constitutes the everyday common sense, name and form, is what is to be noted. This helps break the attachment to what is arising which is the cause of suffering. Doesn't this make sense?
You don't rely on something that is not there. It is there whether you are willing to admit it or not. My whole point is, how the very act of observing can become a game we play with ourselves.
What is there?
Self view[/quote]
It's a thought, an image, no? It arises and disappears. There is no substance to it. You note it and let go.

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Bundokji » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:14 pm

Saengnapha wrote:It's a thought, an image, no? It arises and disappears. There is no substance to it. You note it and let go.
There is no substance it is a half truth, because it does not change anything. Is it not the main driver behind your behavior and the way you relate to the world?

My point is purely practical. You can argue as long as you want that it does not exist, you can search for it and you will never be able to find it, but that does not change anything, does it?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Dinsdale
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:56 pm

retrofuturist wrote:The best way to do this, IMO, is to see 'arising'.
I'm not entirely clear what you mean by "arising" - do you mean phassa ( contact )? Maybe you could give a practical example?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:22 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Saengnapha wrote:It's a thought, an image, no? It arises and disappears. There is no substance to it. You note it and let go.
There is no substance it is a half truth, because it does not change anything. Is it not the main driver behind your behavior and the way you relate to the world?

My point is purely practical. You can argue as long as you want that it does not exist, you can search for it and you will never be able to find it, but that does not change anything, does it?
I'm afraid I can't follow your argument. Mindfulness is not about finding anything, it's about noting and knowing what you are doing in the moment. It has no philosophical meaning. It is an activity like reading. It involves attention. Of course the attention is yours, but that is not the point of mindfulness.

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness as non-judgmental awareness revisited

Post by Bundokji » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:30 pm

Saengnapha wrote:I'm afraid I can't follow your argument. Mindfulness is not about finding anything, it's about noting and knowing what you are doing in the moment. It has no philosophical meaning. It is an activity like reading. It involves attention. Of course the attention is yours, but that is not the point of mindfulness.
In our daily life, even before we encounter Buddhism, we pay attention to many different things. Usually, attention is linked either to desire (when you walk in the street and you encounter someone from the opposite sex, you might pay more attention to certain parts of the body) and it is also linked to mental habits (we do have the habit of focusing on certain things and overlooking other things). Also attention is linked to that which is against the norm (imagine you go to a room full of people and everyone is wearing the same color except one).

What is the difference (if any) between Buddhist mindfulness and the normal attention of everyday life. I am not asking about the subject of attention, but about the activity itself?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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