Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

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Buddha Vacana
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:06 am

So, I am going to provide again definitions of the terms from mainstream dictionaries:

Phobia as a word
Merriam-Webster: an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation

Oxford dictionary: An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

The free dictionary:
pho·bi·a (fō′bē-ə) n.
1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.
Phobia as a suffix:
Wikitionary
Suffix -phobia
1. Used to form nouns meaning fear of a specific thing. e.g. claustrophobia
2. (analogy) Used to form nouns meaning hate, dislike, contempt, or repression of a specific thing. e.g. homophobia
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-phobia
Islamophobia:
Merriam-Webster: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam

Oxford dictionary: Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

The free dictionary:
Islamophobia (ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə)
1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture

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Sam Vara
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:19 am

I find the "phobia" part of this, as used in political discourse, very interesting. When I was growing up in the UK in the 1960s, I only ever remember the term "phobia" being used in its clinical sense. Claustrophobia, agoraphobia, arachnophobia, etc., and whole lists of really obscure ones such as triskaidekaphobia (irrational fear of the number 13).

During the 1970s, the term "homophobia" moved from its clinical setting to a political one. As well as meaning (an extremely rare) irrational fear of homosexuals, it started to mean a dislike of or prejudice towards gays, a willingness to say bad things about them or harm them. I remember a clinical psychologist making a joking reference to this change of use at the time. He said that one clinical test for arachnophobia was the inability of a sufferer to keep their hand in a big sweet-jar which contained a 1cm. spider. He wondered if "homophobes" could put their hand into a sweet-jar containing a gay man.

"Homophobia" thus became a way of labelling those who had particular attitudes to gays, and so we also had "homophobic" language and institutions and texts, etc. There was no need to coin or adapt similar phrases in the case of other political struggles; we already had "racism" and "sexism" or "misogyny". "Islamophobia" followed, along with "Transphobia", "Biphobia", "Christophobia", etc. We've always had "Xenophobia", but this seems to have been given a new lease of life. The adaptation of the term "phobia" was probably due in part to the medicalisation of everyday life; lots of common conditions have acquired clinical names and are now treated by doctors and psychologists. I think it is also to do with wishing to show how there is something wrong - often clinically wrong - with those who have opinions or exhibit behaviours we find objectionable. This is especially so in a polity or community in which identity politics flourishes. If a person brutally attacks me, or even expresses animosity towards me, then that's always difficult for me. Especially so if it makes me think that they might have a point, that there might be something unpleasant or wrong about me. But if I can see my attacker as "SamVaraphobic", then it pushes the problem on to them. I'm OK, but they are not OK.

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DooDoot
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:29 am

..................
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:30 am

clw_uk wrote:...as a gay man I have a lot to fear from Islam.
Why? Please share with us the times Islam has threatened your life in all of the years you have been alive? Thanks. My appraisal is Muslims have much more to fear from the West.
The Iran–Iraq War was an armed conflict between Iran and Iraq lasting from 22 September 1980, when Iraq invaded Iran, to August 1988...The conflict has been compared to World War I in terms of the tactics used, including large-scale trench warfare with barbed wire stretched across trenches, manned machine gun posts, bayonet charges, "human wave attacks," extensive use of chemical weapons by Iraq, and later deliberate attacks on civilian targets. The world powers United States and the Soviet Union, together with France and most Arab countries provided support for Iraq, while Iran as a Persian country was largely isolated....Iraqi casualties are estimated at 105,000–200,000 killed...According to Iranian government sources, the war cost Iran an estimated 200,000–220,000 killed...
Various scientific surveys of Iraqi deaths resulting from the first four years of the Iraq War estimated up to one million Iraqis died as a result of conflict during this time. Wikipedia
A systematic cross-sectional field survey and non-structured search was carried out over fourteen provinces in six Libyan regions, representing the primary sites of the armed conflict between February 2011 and February 2012. A total of 21,490 (0.5%) persons were killed, 19,700 (0.47%) injured and 435,000 (10.33%) displaced.
The UN High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) estimated at 435,000 Libya’s population of internally displaced people.
...it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own.... Sam Harris
clw_uk wrote:Compared to other religions, it is lacking. Everywhere that Islam dominates becomes Hell.

Evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg

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clw_uk
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:31 am

Buddha Vacana -

Lefties are too easy. This will get repetitive, but i guess we learn that way.
Merriam-Webster: an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation
Fearing Islam isn't "exaggerated", "inexplicable" or "illogical". At least not if you are gay.

Oxford dictionary: An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
Once again, it's not irrational to fear Islam.

The free dictionary:
pho·bi·a (fō′bē-ə) n.
1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
So it's abnormal to fear Islam? Is that your argument? If not, let's discard it.

"Irrational"

Is it irrational for gays to fear Islam? I think not, let's discard this definition (running out of ammo here buddy)

A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.
That seems rather weak. Strongly disliking something doesn't suggest a phobia to me, unless you admit you have Naziphobia? Do you?

Wikitionary
Suffix -phobia
1. Used to form nouns meaning fear of a specific thing. e.g. claustrophobia
2. (analogy) Used to form nouns meaning hate, dislike, contempt, or repression of a specific thing. e.g. homophobia
Firstly "wiki"? Really? For a dictionary definition?

Secondly, by this definition are you Naziphobic?

See phobia means an irrational fear. It's rational to fear Nazism, and the same for Islam.


Anymore of this?
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clw_uk
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:13 am

DooDoot -
Why? Please share with us the times Islam has threatened your life in all of the years you have been alive? Thanks. My appraisal is Muslims have much more to fear from the West.
In general Islam has threatened my life numerous times through terrorist threats and, sadly, terrorist attacks. Specifically Islam is not friendly towards homosexuality. For example, the results of a recent muslim attitude survey in the UK:
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... sharia-law


When looking at social attitude surveys from Pew (linked below this paragraph) we can see the following:

Sharia law – 99% of Afghani’s support, 84% of Pakistani’s support, 91% or Iraq’s support and 71% of Nigerian Muslims support (no data for Syrians)

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics ... update.png

Sex outside marriage – 83% of Iraq’s think it is morally wrong, as do 93% of Pakistani’s and 87% of Nigerian Muslims (no data for the other nationalities).
Homosexuality – 90% of Pakistani’s agree that homosexuality is morally wrong, as do 77% of Iraq’s and 94% of Nigerians (no data for the other nationalities)

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -morality/

Perhaps more worrying are the views on suicide bombings. 39% of Afghani’s agreed that suicide bombings in defence of Islam is “often/sometimes justified”. 13% of Pakistani’s thought the same as did 7% of Iraq’s.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

So yes, I fear Islam.

The Iran–Iraq War was an armed conflict between Iran and Iraq lasting from 22 September 1980, when Iraq invaded Iran, to August 1988...The conflict has been compared to World War I in terms of the tactics used, including large-scale trench warfare with barbed wire stretched across trenches, manned machine gun posts, bayonet charges, "human wave attacks," extensive use of chemical weapons by Iraq, and later deliberate attacks on civilian targets. The world powers United States and the Soviet Union, together with France and most Arab countries provided support for Iraq, while Iran as a Persian country was largely isolated....Iraqi casualties are estimated at 105,000–200,000 killed...According to Iranian government sources, the war cost Iran an estimated 200,000–220,000 killed...
So a war between Iran and Iraq which involved muslims, capitalists and marxists is your idea of an argument? Really?

As for the rest, I would need links.

But on a general note, its a shame to see your arguments and views regress this much Nick/Element. And to think, we used to be in such agreement.
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DooDoot
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:45 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Why? Please share with us the times Islam has threatened your life in all of the years you have been alive? Thanks. My appraisal is Muslims have much more to fear from the West.
In general Islam has threatened my life numerous times through terrorist threats and, sadly, terrorist attacks. Specifically Islam is not friendly towards homosexuality. For example, the results of a recent muslim attitude survey in the UK:
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... sharia-law
Thanks. So not one single Muslim has ever directly threatened your life. The only threat is imaginary based on what you posted. Yet Great Britain killed one million Muslims in Iraq for no reason. Also, I do not believe in ghosts & bogey men. The terrorists are from political allies of Great Britain, namely, Saudi Arabia & Pakistan. UK sells billion$$$ of weapons to Saudi Arabia and probably also Pakistan. It was the Pakistani military that airlifted Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan before the US & Britain invaded. It was all approved & planned (Wiki 'Airlift of Evil'). But you believe Muslims are roaming free in the U.K. to terrorize you and the U.K. is unable to stop this. :roll:
Since the war started in March 2015, the UK Government has approved no less than 194 export licences for arms and related equipment to Saudi Arabia, worth more than £3.3bn
Also, homosexuality was illegal in the UK until recently. Today, the majority of believing Christians would also think homosexuality should be illegal.
1980 – The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980 decriminalized homosexual acts between two men over 21 years of age "in private" in Scotland.
clw_uk wrote:When looking at social attitude surveys from Pew (linked below this paragraph) we can see the following:

Sharia law – 99% of Afghani’s support, 84% of Pakistani’s support, 91% or Iraq’s support and 71% of Nigerian Muslims support (no data for Syrians)
The UK invaded & colonized many countries, such as Australia, killing & destroyed the culture of many indigenous people. But Muslims did not invade the UK. The UK invited them into the UK. I think it would be wise to stop blaming Muslims who want Sharia Law in England. In was the UK that invited Muslims into the UK. If you disagree with this foreign culture in the UK, focus on the UK govt is my opinion.
clw_uk wrote:Sex outside marriage – 83% of Iraq’s think it is morally wrong, as do 93% of Pakistani’s and 87% of Nigerian Muslims (no data for the other nationalities).
I am a Buddhist & I personally believe sex outside of marriage is morally wrong. I have believed this for more than 1/2 of my life. The Pali suttas and the Christian Bible does not recommend sex outside of marriage. DN 31 says parents must marry their children. Where did you get the idea that Buddhism supports or encourages sex outside of marriage? :?
Homosexuality – 90% of Pakistani’s agree that homosexuality is morally wrong, as do 77% of Iraq’s and 94% of Nigerians (no data for the other nationalities)
Homosexuality was illegal in most Western nations until around 50 years ago or less. Sorry. But the world does not revolve around the sensitivities of homosexuals. Just because Buddhism does not discriminate against homosexuals does not give homosexuals who think they are Buddhists the free license to attack other religions who may disagree with homosexuality.
clw_uk wrote:Perhaps more worrying are the views on suicide bombings. 39% of Afghani’s agreed that suicide bombings in defence of Islam is “often/sometimes justified”. 13% of Pakistani’s thought the same as did 7% of Iraq’s.
So what? Many British believed the immoral war against Iraq was justified. Unlike these Afgan dreamers (who are probably from the Taliban created by the USA), the UK has actually killed millions of Muslims.
clw_uk wrote:So yes, I fear Islam.
Sorry. But the world does not revolve around your idiosyncratic fears. As Buddhists, when we have fear, we read MN 4 to overcome fear. My homosexuals friends have lots of money and travel lots each year. They travel in Muslim countries & have a good time because they are virtuous with boundless metta.
clw_uk wrote:So a war between Iran and Iraq which involved muslims, capitalists and marxists is your idea of an argument? Really?
It was a war started by a US puppet dictator supplied weapons by the USA & France, including chemical weapons. The poor Iranians had to fight for their lives in defence, just like Syrians today are fighting for their lives against NATO backed terrorists.
clw_uk wrote:And to think, we used to be in such agreement.
We, in agreement? I doubt I could have ever been in agreement with you on such matters. I have never ever endorsed sex outside of marriage or belittled sex in marriage. I have never been a capitalist or a liberalist. My views on these matters have generally been the same for decades. As Buddhists, we extend compassion & friendship to people, including to yourself. But you seem to not choose to extend the same friendship to others but instead blame Muslims for the actions of the British government. It is wrong to use Buddhism as a weapon of hate & greed. Buddhism does not support capitalism. Buddhism does not support viewing Islam with fear. Sorry. But, imo, Buddhism does not support these agendas.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:41 pm

hi clw_uk,

You are here on a Buddhist forum explaining how you fear Islam and how that should be recognized as acceptable. I see some contradiction here.
What are the four causes of harmful deeds? Going astray through desire, hatred, delusion, or fear, the noble disciple does harmful deeds.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ksw0.html
I am not going to debate with you, because you are too unpleasant to talk to, and I have more productive things to do.

To sum up my points:

1. The dictionaries include "aversion" or "hatred" of Islam, and not simply "illogical fear" in their definitions.

2. Some people are seen engaging in such aversion or hatred, as evidenced by the pictures of people holding signs that have been censored above.

3. Therefore #1 describes #2

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clw_uk
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:53 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:hi clw_uk,

You are here on a Buddhist forum explaining how you fear Islam and how that should be recognized as acceptable. I see some contradiction here.
What are the four causes of harmful deeds? Going astray through desire, hatred, delusion, or fear, the noble disciple does harmful deeds.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ksw0.html
I am not going to debate with you, because you are too unpleasant to talk to, and I have more productive things to do.

To sum up my points:

1. The dictionaries include "aversion" or "hatred" of Islam, and not simply "illogical fear" in their definitions.

2. Some people are seen engaging in such aversion or hatred, as evidenced by the pictures of people holding signs that have been censored above.

3. Therefore #1 describes #2
Then do not reply to me.

I would add though that you seem to be engaging in "love" of Islam, whilst you accuse me of "hatred". Blinded perhaps are we?
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clw_uk
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:00 pm

DooDoot
Thanks. So not one single Muslim has ever directly threatened your life.
Actually, yes. Does that make my argument valid? If not it would seem you are going to make apologies for Islam no matter what. Which is it?
The only threat is imaginary based on what you posted.

Oh no its real, but its not for the likes of some to comprehend it. Idealism gets in the way and all that.


Yet Great Britain killed one million Muslims in Iraq for no reason.
Is this in reference to the Iraq war, or the Iran-Iraq war where everyone was involved? Your posts are so confused its difficult to keep up.


Also, I do not believe in ghosts & bogey men.


Interesting. I'm glad, but this seems irrelevant.


The terrorists are from political allies of Great Britain, namely, Saudi Arabia & Pakistan.
And what ideology do they have in common. Hint, its not Jainism ;)

UK sells billion$$$ of weapons to Saudi Arabia and probably also Pakistan. It was the Pakistani military that airlifted Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan before the US & Britain invaded. It was all approved & planned (Wiki 'Airlift of Evil').


Mindless drivel about the arms trade. Next.



But you believe Muslims are roaming free in the U.K. to terrorize you and the U.K. is unable to stop this. :roll:

No. Not all Muslims. As I said, i am anti-islam not anti-muslim. Sadly though there is a sizeable minority, perhaps a small majority, that hold less than desirable views. The social attitudes surveys always show it, and for more empirical proof look at the rotherham sex gangs (and cities beyond).
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:09 pm

DooDoot
Also, homosexuality was illegal in the UK until recently. Today, the majority of believing Christians would also think homosexuality should be illegal.
Whataboutism again. Would you like to go back to the crusades in your defence of Islam? The point is that Christianity has reformed, Islam hasn't and it may be immune to such attempts. Most Christians today in the UK have a better view of homosexuality than Islam. But lets say they don't and they are on par with Islam, why then should we encourage the growth of Islam if its just as bad as Christianity?

The UK invaded & colonized many countries, such as Australia, killing & destroyed the culture of many indigenous people. But Muslims did not invade the UK. The UK invited them into the UK. I think it would be wise to stop blaming Muslims who want Sharia Law in England. In was the UK that invited Muslims into the UK. If you disagree with this foreign culture in the UK, focus on the UK govt is my opinion.
The UK did have an empire, which uplifted many nations. Muslims also had an empire, and a slave trade that rivaled the Atlantic slave trade (not mentioned that often) and numerous empires. You are correct that we invited them to the UK, due to regressive leftist ideology and policies and globalist ideology. Time to turn back the tide.

I am a Buddhist & I personally believe sex outside of marriage is morally wrong. I have believed this for more than 1/2 of my life. The Pali suttas and the Christian Bible does not recommend sex outside of marriage. DN 31 says parents must marry their children. Where did you get the idea that Buddhism supports or encourages sex outside of marriage?

Where did you get the strange idea?

Homosexuality was illegal in most Western nations until around 50 years ago or less. Sorry. But the world does not revolve around the sensitivities of homosexuals. Just because Buddhism does not discriminate against homosexuals does not give homosexuals who think they are Buddhists the free license to attack other religions who may disagree with homosexuality.
I see. We should just put up and shut up with ideologies which want to throw us from a cliff. Nice :thumbsup: I bet the Jews would have loved you during WW2. Regardless, i can attack any religion or ideology I like. Only authoritarians try to restrict that. What are you?
So what? Many British believed the immoral war against Iraq was justified. Unlike these Afgan dreamers (who are probably from the Taliban created by the USA), the UK has actually killed millions of Muslims.
What relevance has this?
It was a war started by a US puppet dictator supplied weapons by the USA & France, including chemical weapons. The poor Iranians had to fight for their lives in defence, just like Syrians today are fighting for their lives against NATO backed terrorists.

Your islamophilia is distorting your view of history my friend.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:09 pm

I don't understand why you're thinking all Muslims are to be feared just because some are terrorists is rational. Some minorities are criminals, so lets fear ALL minorities. Not Rational.

Some white guys are White supremacists so lets fear ALL white guys. Not Rational.

Some dogs bite, so lets fear ALL dogs. Not Rational.

Some Muslims are terrorists, so lets fear all Muslims. Not Rational.

These issues can be solved by education.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:10 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote:I don't understand why you're thinking all Muslims are to be feared just because some are terrorists is rational. Some minorities are criminals, so lets fear ALL minorities. Not Rational.

Some white guys are White supremacists so lets fear ALL white guys. Not Rational.

Some dogs bite, so lets fear ALL dogs. Not Rational.

Some Muslims are terrorists, so lets fear all Muslims. Not Rational.

These issues can be solved by education.
:goodpost:

Thank you for bringing sanity to this discussion

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:22 am

BasementBuddhist wrote:I don't understand why you're thinking all Muslims are to be feared just because some are terrorists is rational. Some minorities are criminals, so lets fear ALL minorities. Not Rational.

Some white guys are White supremacists so lets fear ALL white guys. Not Rational.

Some dogs bite, so lets fear ALL dogs. Not Rational.

Some Muslims are terrorists, so lets fear all Muslims. Not Rational.

These issues can be solved by education.

Once again, being anti-Islam doesn't equal being anti-Muslim. The ideology of Islam is horrendous, for sure, but Muslims interact with it in different ways. Some are extreme, others Liberal. Therefore you should treat each person as an individual and evaluate on a case by case basis. You can do all that whilst recognising the horrors of Islam.

I do realise however that this may be difficult for leftists, as they are accustomed to seeing groups instead of the individual. This may be why leftists have trouble distinquising between being anti-Islam and anti-Muslim. Interesting thought.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:58 am

clw_uk wrote:The ideology of Islam is horrendous, for sure..
Because I follow the five precepts, Islam does not bother me. My ancestors lived for 100s of years under Islam and I am here as a result of that. The only problem my ancestors had was when the British turned up and, exactly the same as with the Saudis in WW1, the Muslim Brotherhood in the 50s, Taliban & Al Queda in the 80s, ISIS today, the British paid a radical group of lunatics to start killing the people of my ancestors so the British could brew up a divide-&-conquer conflict in the Ottoman Empire. I am a Buddhist. I investigate causes & conditions in reality rather than get brainwashed by the imperialist mass-media. There are Muslim scholars that claim the 'One of Great Patience" mentioned in the Koran is the Lord Buddha.

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