Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

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clw_uk
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:13 am

DooDoot -
Why? Please share with us the times Islam has threatened your life in all of the years you have been alive? Thanks. My appraisal is Muslims have much more to fear from the West.
In general Islam has threatened my life numerous times through terrorist threats and, sadly, terrorist attacks. Specifically Islam is not friendly towards homosexuality. For example, the results of a recent muslim attitude survey in the UK:
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... sharia-law


When looking at social attitude surveys from Pew (linked below this paragraph) we can see the following:

Sharia law – 99% of Afghani’s support, 84% of Pakistani’s support, 91% or Iraq’s support and 71% of Nigerian Muslims support (no data for Syrians)

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics ... update.png

Sex outside marriage – 83% of Iraq’s think it is morally wrong, as do 93% of Pakistani’s and 87% of Nigerian Muslims (no data for the other nationalities).
Homosexuality – 90% of Pakistani’s agree that homosexuality is morally wrong, as do 77% of Iraq’s and 94% of Nigerians (no data for the other nationalities)

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -morality/

Perhaps more worrying are the views on suicide bombings. 39% of Afghani’s agreed that suicide bombings in defence of Islam is “often/sometimes justified”. 13% of Pakistani’s thought the same as did 7% of Iraq’s.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

So yes, I fear Islam.

The Iran–Iraq War was an armed conflict between Iran and Iraq lasting from 22 September 1980, when Iraq invaded Iran, to August 1988...The conflict has been compared to World War I in terms of the tactics used, including large-scale trench warfare with barbed wire stretched across trenches, manned machine gun posts, bayonet charges, "human wave attacks," extensive use of chemical weapons by Iraq, and later deliberate attacks on civilian targets. The world powers United States and the Soviet Union, together with France and most Arab countries provided support for Iraq, while Iran as a Persian country was largely isolated....Iraqi casualties are estimated at 105,000–200,000 killed...According to Iranian government sources, the war cost Iran an estimated 200,000–220,000 killed...
So a war between Iran and Iraq which involved muslims, capitalists and marxists is your idea of an argument? Really?

As for the rest, I would need links.

But on a general note, its a shame to see your arguments and views regress this much Nick/Element. And to think, we used to be in such agreement.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:45 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Why? Please share with us the times Islam has threatened your life in all of the years you have been alive? Thanks. My appraisal is Muslims have much more to fear from the West.
In general Islam has threatened my life numerous times through terrorist threats and, sadly, terrorist attacks. Specifically Islam is not friendly towards homosexuality. For example, the results of a recent muslim attitude survey in the UK:
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... sharia-law
Thanks. So not one single Muslim has ever directly threatened your life. The only threat is imaginary based on what you posted. Yet Great Britain killed one million Muslims in Iraq for no reason. Also, I do not believe in ghosts & bogey men. The terrorists are from political allies of Great Britain, namely, Saudi Arabia & Pakistan. UK sells billion$$$ of weapons to Saudi Arabia and probably also Pakistan. It was the Pakistani military that airlifted Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan before the US & Britain invaded. It was all approved & planned (Wiki 'Airlift of Evil'). But you believe Muslims are roaming free in the U.K. to terrorize you and the U.K. is unable to stop this. :roll:
Since the war started in March 2015, the UK Government has approved no less than 194 export licences for arms and related equipment to Saudi Arabia, worth more than £3.3bn
Also, homosexuality was illegal in the UK until recently. Today, the majority of believing Christians would also think homosexuality should be illegal.
1980 – The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980 decriminalized homosexual acts between two men over 21 years of age "in private" in Scotland.
clw_uk wrote:When looking at social attitude surveys from Pew (linked below this paragraph) we can see the following:

Sharia law – 99% of Afghani’s support, 84% of Pakistani’s support, 91% or Iraq’s support and 71% of Nigerian Muslims support (no data for Syrians)
The UK invaded & colonized many countries, such as Australia, killing & destroyed the culture of many indigenous people. But Muslims did not invade the UK. The UK invited them into the UK. I think it would be wise to stop blaming Muslims who want Sharia Law in England. In was the UK that invited Muslims into the UK. If you disagree with this foreign culture in the UK, focus on the UK govt is my opinion.
clw_uk wrote:Sex outside marriage – 83% of Iraq’s think it is morally wrong, as do 93% of Pakistani’s and 87% of Nigerian Muslims (no data for the other nationalities).
I am a Buddhist & I personally believe sex outside of marriage is morally wrong. I have believed this for more than 1/2 of my life. The Pali suttas and the Christian Bible does not recommend sex outside of marriage. DN 31 says parents must marry their children. Where did you get the idea that Buddhism supports or encourages sex outside of marriage? :?
Homosexuality – 90% of Pakistani’s agree that homosexuality is morally wrong, as do 77% of Iraq’s and 94% of Nigerians (no data for the other nationalities)
Homosexuality was illegal in most Western nations until around 50 years ago or less. Sorry. But the world does not revolve around the sensitivities of homosexuals. Just because Buddhism does not discriminate against homosexuals does not give homosexuals who think they are Buddhists the free license to attack other religions who may disagree with homosexuality.
clw_uk wrote:Perhaps more worrying are the views on suicide bombings. 39% of Afghani’s agreed that suicide bombings in defence of Islam is “often/sometimes justified”. 13% of Pakistani’s thought the same as did 7% of Iraq’s.
So what? Many British believed the immoral war against Iraq was justified. Unlike these Afgan dreamers (who are probably from the Taliban created by the USA), the UK has actually killed millions of Muslims.
clw_uk wrote:So yes, I fear Islam.
Sorry. But the world does not revolve around your idiosyncratic fears. As Buddhists, when we have fear, we read MN 4 to overcome fear. My homosexuals friends have lots of money and travel lots each year. They travel in Muslim countries & have a good time because they are virtuous with boundless metta.
clw_uk wrote:So a war between Iran and Iraq which involved muslims, capitalists and marxists is your idea of an argument? Really?
It was a war started by a US puppet dictator supplied weapons by the USA & France, including chemical weapons. The poor Iranians had to fight for their lives in defence, just like Syrians today are fighting for their lives against NATO backed terrorists.
clw_uk wrote:And to think, we used to be in such agreement.
We, in agreement? I doubt I could have ever been in agreement with you on such matters. I have never ever endorsed sex outside of marriage or belittled sex in marriage. I have never been a capitalist or a liberalist. My views on these matters have generally been the same for decades. As Buddhists, we extend compassion & friendship to people, including to yourself. But you seem to not choose to extend the same friendship to others but instead blame Muslims for the actions of the British government. It is wrong to use Buddhism as a weapon of hate & greed. Buddhism does not support capitalism. Buddhism does not support viewing Islam with fear. Sorry. But, imo, Buddhism does not support these agendas.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:41 pm

hi clw_uk,

You are here on a Buddhist forum explaining how you fear Islam and how that should be recognized as acceptable. I see some contradiction here.
What are the four causes of harmful deeds? Going astray through desire, hatred, delusion, or fear, the noble disciple does harmful deeds.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ksw0.html
I am not going to debate with you, because you are too unpleasant to talk to, and I have more productive things to do.

To sum up my points:

1. The dictionaries include "aversion" or "hatred" of Islam, and not simply "illogical fear" in their definitions.

2. Some people are seen engaging in such aversion or hatred, as evidenced by the pictures of people holding signs that have been censored above.

3. Therefore #1 describes #2

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:53 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:hi clw_uk,

You are here on a Buddhist forum explaining how you fear Islam and how that should be recognized as acceptable. I see some contradiction here.
What are the four causes of harmful deeds? Going astray through desire, hatred, delusion, or fear, the noble disciple does harmful deeds.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ksw0.html
I am not going to debate with you, because you are too unpleasant to talk to, and I have more productive things to do.

To sum up my points:

1. The dictionaries include "aversion" or "hatred" of Islam, and not simply "illogical fear" in their definitions.

2. Some people are seen engaging in such aversion or hatred, as evidenced by the pictures of people holding signs that have been censored above.

3. Therefore #1 describes #2
Then do not reply to me.

I would add though that you seem to be engaging in "love" of Islam, whilst you accuse me of "hatred". Blinded perhaps are we?
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:00 pm

DooDoot
Thanks. So not one single Muslim has ever directly threatened your life.
Actually, yes. Does that make my argument valid? If not it would seem you are going to make apologies for Islam no matter what. Which is it?
The only threat is imaginary based on what you posted.

Oh no its real, but its not for the likes of some to comprehend it. Idealism gets in the way and all that.


Yet Great Britain killed one million Muslims in Iraq for no reason.
Is this in reference to the Iraq war, or the Iran-Iraq war where everyone was involved? Your posts are so confused its difficult to keep up.


Also, I do not believe in ghosts & bogey men.


Interesting. I'm glad, but this seems irrelevant.


The terrorists are from political allies of Great Britain, namely, Saudi Arabia & Pakistan.
And what ideology do they have in common. Hint, its not Jainism ;)

UK sells billion$$$ of weapons to Saudi Arabia and probably also Pakistan. It was the Pakistani military that airlifted Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan before the US & Britain invaded. It was all approved & planned (Wiki 'Airlift of Evil').


Mindless drivel about the arms trade. Next.



But you believe Muslims are roaming free in the U.K. to terrorize you and the U.K. is unable to stop this. :roll:

No. Not all Muslims. As I said, i am anti-islam not anti-muslim. Sadly though there is a sizeable minority, perhaps a small majority, that hold less than desirable views. The social attitudes surveys always show it, and for more empirical proof look at the rotherham sex gangs (and cities beyond).
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:09 pm

DooDoot
Also, homosexuality was illegal in the UK until recently. Today, the majority of believing Christians would also think homosexuality should be illegal.
Whataboutism again. Would you like to go back to the crusades in your defence of Islam? The point is that Christianity has reformed, Islam hasn't and it may be immune to such attempts. Most Christians today in the UK have a better view of homosexuality than Islam. But lets say they don't and they are on par with Islam, why then should we encourage the growth of Islam if its just as bad as Christianity?

The UK invaded & colonized many countries, such as Australia, killing & destroyed the culture of many indigenous people. But Muslims did not invade the UK. The UK invited them into the UK. I think it would be wise to stop blaming Muslims who want Sharia Law in England. In was the UK that invited Muslims into the UK. If you disagree with this foreign culture in the UK, focus on the UK govt is my opinion.
The UK did have an empire, which uplifted many nations. Muslims also had an empire, and a slave trade that rivaled the Atlantic slave trade (not mentioned that often) and numerous empires. You are correct that we invited them to the UK, due to regressive leftist ideology and policies and globalist ideology. Time to turn back the tide.

I am a Buddhist & I personally believe sex outside of marriage is morally wrong. I have believed this for more than 1/2 of my life. The Pali suttas and the Christian Bible does not recommend sex outside of marriage. DN 31 says parents must marry their children. Where did you get the idea that Buddhism supports or encourages sex outside of marriage?

Where did you get the strange idea?

Homosexuality was illegal in most Western nations until around 50 years ago or less. Sorry. But the world does not revolve around the sensitivities of homosexuals. Just because Buddhism does not discriminate against homosexuals does not give homosexuals who think they are Buddhists the free license to attack other religions who may disagree with homosexuality.
I see. We should just put up and shut up with ideologies which want to throw us from a cliff. Nice :thumbsup: I bet the Jews would have loved you during WW2. Regardless, i can attack any religion or ideology I like. Only authoritarians try to restrict that. What are you?
So what? Many British believed the immoral war against Iraq was justified. Unlike these Afgan dreamers (who are probably from the Taliban created by the USA), the UK has actually killed millions of Muslims.
What relevance has this?
It was a war started by a US puppet dictator supplied weapons by the USA & France, including chemical weapons. The poor Iranians had to fight for their lives in defence, just like Syrians today are fighting for their lives against NATO backed terrorists.

Your islamophilia is distorting your view of history my friend.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:09 pm

I don't understand why you're thinking all Muslims are to be feared just because some are terrorists is rational. Some minorities are criminals, so lets fear ALL minorities. Not Rational.

Some white guys are White supremacists so lets fear ALL white guys. Not Rational.

Some dogs bite, so lets fear ALL dogs. Not Rational.

Some Muslims are terrorists, so lets fear all Muslims. Not Rational.

These issues can be solved by education.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:10 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote:I don't understand why you're thinking all Muslims are to be feared just because some are terrorists is rational. Some minorities are criminals, so lets fear ALL minorities. Not Rational.

Some white guys are White supremacists so lets fear ALL white guys. Not Rational.

Some dogs bite, so lets fear ALL dogs. Not Rational.

Some Muslims are terrorists, so lets fear all Muslims. Not Rational.

These issues can be solved by education.
:goodpost:

Thank you for bringing sanity to this discussion

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:22 am

BasementBuddhist wrote:I don't understand why you're thinking all Muslims are to be feared just because some are terrorists is rational. Some minorities are criminals, so lets fear ALL minorities. Not Rational.

Some white guys are White supremacists so lets fear ALL white guys. Not Rational.

Some dogs bite, so lets fear ALL dogs. Not Rational.

Some Muslims are terrorists, so lets fear all Muslims. Not Rational.

These issues can be solved by education.

Once again, being anti-Islam doesn't equal being anti-Muslim. The ideology of Islam is horrendous, for sure, but Muslims interact with it in different ways. Some are extreme, others Liberal. Therefore you should treat each person as an individual and evaluate on a case by case basis. You can do all that whilst recognising the horrors of Islam.

I do realise however that this may be difficult for leftists, as they are accustomed to seeing groups instead of the individual. This may be why leftists have trouble distinquising between being anti-Islam and anti-Muslim. Interesting thought.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:58 am

clw_uk wrote:The ideology of Islam is horrendous, for sure..
Because I follow the five precepts, Islam does not bother me. My ancestors lived for 100s of years under Islam and I am here as a result of that. The only problem my ancestors had was when the British turned up and, exactly the same as with the Saudis in WW1, the Muslim Brotherhood in the 50s, Taliban & Al Queda in the 80s, ISIS today, the British paid a radical group of lunatics to start killing the people of my ancestors so the British could brew up a divide-&-conquer conflict in the Ottoman Empire. I am a Buddhist. I investigate causes & conditions in reality rather than get brainwashed by the imperialist mass-media. There are Muslim scholars that claim the 'One of Great Patience" mentioned in the Koran is the Lord Buddha.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:08 am

clw_uk wrote:
BasementBuddhist wrote:I don't understand why you're thinking all Muslims are to be feared just because some are terrorists is rational. Some minorities are criminals, so lets fear ALL minorities. Not Rational.

Some white guys are White supremacists so lets fear ALL white guys. Not Rational.

Some dogs bite, so lets fear ALL dogs. Not Rational.

Some Muslims are terrorists, so lets fear all Muslims. Not Rational.

These issues can be solved by education.

Once again, being anti-Islam doesn't equal being anti-Muslim. The ideology of Islam is horrendous, for sure, but Muslims interact with it in different ways. Some are extreme, others Liberal. Therefore you should treat each person as an individual and evaluate on a case by case basis. You can do all that whilst recognising the horrors of Islam.

I do realise however that this may be difficult for leftists, as they are accustomed to seeing groups instead of the individual. This may be why leftists have trouble distinquising between being anti-Islam and anti-Muslim. Interesting thought.
I don't find Islam horrific.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:45 am

BasementBuddhist
I don't find Islam horrific.
Nothing horrific in the ideology at all? Not a smidge? Perhaps Islam is the religion of peace and love after all. The anti-gay persecution and anti-women elements must be western lies. Then again, maybe not.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:47 am

BasementBuddhist

Oh, and let's not forget Muhammad. Do you see a noble character there? What do you think of his rather, shall we say, peculiar sexual appetites? I know Buddha wouldn't have approved. Where do you stand friend?
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:53 am

Greetings Craig, all,

:focus:

The matter of whether Islam is an existential threat, and thus, something to be legitimately feared, is on topic.

Mohammad's proclivities are not.

You gave good advice earlier about differentiating views from individuals... it would be good if you could bring this discipline to your own contributions.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:12 am

The UK invaded & colonized many countries, such as Australia, killing & destroyed the culture of many indigenous people. But Muslims did not invade the UK. The UK invited them into the UK. I think it would be wise to stop blaming Muslims who want Sharia Law in England. In was the UK that invited Muslims into the UK. If you disagree with this foreign culture in the UK, focus on the UK govt is my opinion.
...
And muslims had slave trade going on for thousands of years with africa, long before the europeans. The otoman empire also enslaved half of europe including my country. My country was rented to whoever payed the most and then exploited so that the renter could make a profit. Serfdom was abolished in eastern europe in the same year as american blacks got out of slavery.


What I wrote above and everything you wrote in that whole messages are not arguments, they are called "whataboutism". You can go on with whataboutism forever and ever and prove any point of view that you want, selectively picking up pieces of history. This was used by URSS during the cold war. US and other western countries would bring up the problem of being a brutal dictatorship, being dead poor, not giving 2 cents about human rights, etc. - and URSS would respond "hey, but what about slavery ? What about Guatemala ?". The modern version is the standard "but what about Iraq ?"

This is a shameful tactic used by people finding themselves on the losing side of a debate. When problems about the functioning of democracy or lack of human rights are brought up, the losing side can just start selectively enumerating historical events relating to the accusing side, like that could somehow explain or excuse the bad actions they are doing in the present.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig, all,

:focus:

The matter of whether Islam is an existential threat, and thus, something to be legitimately feared, is on topic.

Mohammad's proclivities are not.

You gave good advice earlier about differentiating views from individuals... it would be good if you could bring this discipline to your own contributions.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)

I have to disagree. Criticising the founder of a religious tradition is just as important as criticising the ideology that he/she expounded. If Buddha found a religious leader wanting, he would say so. I find Muhammad wanting. That extends to his sexual pass times.

However I realise how certain people can't handle this criticism, which I shall not mention. Out of respect for you and the page I'll withhold this one criticism in all future debates.
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:39 am

Greetings Craig,

I'm reticent to contribute to this discussion in anything other an a moderation capacity, so please see what I'm about to say solely as an elaboration upon the moderator guidance I provided in my previous post...

The suttas explain that from Right View, comes Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action etc.
They also explain that from Wrong View, comes Wrong Thought, Wrong Speech, Wrong Action etc.

Thus...

If the view of Islam leads one to such atrocities, then those atrocities can be addressed through a critique of Islam.
If the view of Islam does not lead one to such atrocities, then those atrocities are not directly relevant to a critique on Islam.
Out of respect for you and the page I'll withhold this one criticism in all future debates.
Moreover, if that is what the topic is about, then it's on-topic.

It's not that mention of his proclivities is prohibited on this forum - it's that unless it's directly on topic, it's likely to produce more heat than light... and in doing so, it makes it harder to moderators to keep topics on topic.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,

I'm reticent to contribute to this discussion in anything other an a moderation capacity, so please see what I'm about to say solely as an elaboration upon the moderator guidance I provided in my previous post...

The suttas explain that from Right View, comes Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action etc.
They also explain that from Wrong View, comes Wrong Thought, Wrong Speech, Wrong Action etc.

Thus...

If the view of Islam leads one to such atrocities, then those atrocities can be addressed through a critique of Islam.
If the view of Islam does not lead one to such atrocities, then those atrocities are not directly relevant to a critique on Islam.
Out of respect for you and the page I'll withhold this one criticism in all future debates.
Moreover, if that is what the topic is about, then it's on-topic.

It's not that mention of his proclivities is prohibited on this forum - it's that unless it's directly on topic, it's likely to produce more heat than light... and in doing so, it makes it harder to moderators to keep topics on topic.

Metta,
Paul. :)
So I can make a new post discussing the topic?
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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by Garrib » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:59 am

IMO "what aboutism" is acceptable in certain circumstances - when someone is consistently singling out a particular group for criticism, on grounds that could be applied to other groups as well (but for whatever reason, those groups are not being targeted), this might indicate that the person doing the criticism has a certain bias/prejudice, which perhaps they themselves do not recognize.

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Re: Islamophobia - A nonsense term?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:00 am

Greetings Craig,

If you can actually make a meaningful and beneficial discussion topic relating to it, then yes.

Or alternatively, find an existing topic where he has been mentioned and continue from there.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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