the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
A fool from HK
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by A fool from HK » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:53 am

cappuccino wrote:If you hold something and let go, will your hand disappear?
Is your hand annihilated?
I like this simile.
Does "annihilated" also mean "disappeared"?
For simiplcity let's assume "holding something" is the only function of a hand.
If the hand does not hold anything, is a "hand" still a "hand"?
If one has no intention to hold something anymore, is it meaningful to differentiate wheather the hand exist/disappear/annihilated?
If one holds the view of "my hand will not disappear/annihilated", would it give rise to the intention of holding something?

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cappuccino
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:09 am

In the absence of holding identity, your hand is empty.

But this doesn't destroy your hand.

A fool from HK
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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by A fool from HK » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:56 am

cappuccino wrote:In the absence of holding identity, your hand is empty.

But this doesn't destroy your hand.
Can we replace the word "hand" with "consciousness"?

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Re: LP Sumedho "consciousness is permanent" - thoughts?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:03 am

A fool from HK wrote:
cappuccino wrote:In the absence of holding identity, your hand is empty.

But this doesn't destroy your hand.
Can we replace the word "hand" with "consciousness"?
yes

Santi253
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:24 pm

Mahayana and Theravada have the same goal, which is Nirvana.

The main difference is that Mahayana Buddhism believes in non-abiding Nirvana, that the enlightened being can freely go between the Nirvana realm and our everyday world, for the benefit of those still trapped in the cycle of death and rebirth.

This is because, in Mahayana Buddhism, the enlightened being sees beyond the duality of Nirvana and Samsara.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:51 am

Santi253 wrote:Mahayana and Theravada have the same goal, which is Nirvana.

The main difference is that Mahayana Buddhism believes in non-abiding Nirvana, that the enlightened being can freely go between the Nirvana realm and our everyday world, for the benefit of those still trapped in the cycle of death and rebirth.

This is because, in Mahayana Buddhism, the enlightened being sees beyond the duality of Nirvana and Samsara.
Yes, and this is a major disconnection between maha and thera. From a thera perspective this is a completely incorrect teaching if applied to nibhanna.
chownah

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:53 am

chownah wrote: From a thera perspective this is a completely incorrect teaching if applied to nibhanna.
chownah
Unless you've attained Nirvana yourself, how would you know?

Not all Theravadins interpret Nibbana the same way:
Others still take it even further, for example the famous Ajahn Mun, who stated that the Buddha even talked to him during his deep meditation experiences, suggesting that the Buddha is at some place in a Buddha-land or Buddha-field.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... tence_view
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by theY » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:04 am

Santi253 wrote:Mahayana and Theravada have the same goal, which is Nirvana.

The main difference is that Mahayana Buddhism believes in non-abiding Nirvana, that the enlightened being can freely go between the Nirvana realm and our everyday world, for the benefit of those still trapped in the cycle of death and rebirth.

This is because, in Mahayana Buddhism, the enlightened being sees beyond the duality of Nirvana and Samsara.
Theravada has not nibbana realm, so Theravada and Mahayana have very difference goals.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:43 am

theY wrote: Theravada has not nibbana realm, so Theravada and Mahayana have very difference goals.
Santi253 wrote: Not all Theravadins interpret Nibbana the same way:
Others still take it even further, for example the famous Ajahn Mun, who stated that the Buddha even talked to him during his deep meditation experiences, suggesting that the Buddha is at some place in a Buddha-land or Buddha-field.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... tence_view
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com

theY
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by theY » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:47 am

Santi253 wrote:
theY wrote: Theravada has not nibbana realm, so Theravada and Mahayana have very difference goals.
Santi253 wrote: Not all Theravadins interpret Nibbana the same way:
Others still take it even further, for example the famous Ajahn Mun, who stated that the Buddha even talked to him during his deep meditation experiences, suggesting that the Buddha is at some place in a Buddha-land or Buddha-field.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... tence_view
That is not mun's speech. I am a Thai. I know mun. He is abhidhammist.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:50 am

theY wrote: Theravada has not nibbana realm, so Theravada and Mahayana have very difference goals.
"Nibbaana realm" = "nibbaanadhaatu" in some traditional ways to render Buddhavacana into English, it's not necessarily supposed to be read as "place".
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by theY » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:32 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
theY wrote: Theravada has not nibbana realm, so Theravada and Mahayana have very difference goals.
"Nibbaana realm" = "nibbaanadhaatu" in some traditional ways to render Buddhavacana into English, it's not necessarily supposed to be read as "place".
Thank you for new knowledge, I never know that before. However, santi253's meaning is place. His mun's quote was very famous in Thai (because it was very wrong with Thai tipitaka), but I don't think it is really his speech. Because it is conflict with the other books of him.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by DNS » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:00 pm

Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote: From a thera perspective this is a completely incorrect teaching if applied to nibhanna.
chownah
Unless you've attained Nirvana yourself, how would you know?
chownah was referring to the thera (as in theravada) perspective, not from any claim of experience with nibbana.
Not all Theravadins interpret Nibbana the same way:
Others still take it even further, for example the famous Ajahn Mun, who stated that the Buddha even talked to him during his deep meditation experiences, suggesting that the Buddha is at some place in a Buddha-land or Buddha-field.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... tence_view
True, but Mun is more of an outlier, not a typical, mainstream theravada view. See for example, the polling so far here:
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=25166

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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:13 pm

theY wrote:because it was very wrong with Thai tipitaka
Was there a manuscript corruption in a famous edition of the Thai tipitaka?
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:02 pm

David N. Snyder wrote: True, but Mun is more of an outlier, not a typical, mainstream theravada view.
This is something I don't know a whole lot about. Does the typical Theravada Buddhist, in traditionally Theravadin countries, believe that the Buddha remains present in the world?
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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