How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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SDC
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by SDC »

Lazy_eye wrote:Just curious...is there anyone here who takes this passage literally? What would be an argument for doing so, and how would you answer the objections that it is unscientific...i.e. conflicts with known facts about the formation of the earth, timetable for appearance of life, etc?

It's interesting that it describes a kind of evolution-in-reverse, that is, higher beings devolving into lower ones. By that logic, humans ought to have appeared prior to chimps, no?
For the record this is my second post, and I have never had the opportunity to verbally relate any of what I am about to say. So please bare with me.

The basis for my theory on this subject has been pieced together from many different sources.

I don't take the passage literally, however I think it would be interesting to know the most recent past lives of the first "human beings" of a newly formed world system. But before discussing human beings it would be interesting to know the most recent past lives of the first sentient matter (single celled organisms). What world systems did those various lives occur on? Not the new one, obviously.

It has been stated that currently there are innumerable beings in the various planes of our world system. Not to mention, when a universe collapses and a world system is destroyed, all sentient beings, in all the realms of that particular world system are reborn immediately in another world system. I'm assuming our system has experienced these influxes of "foreigners"and will again in the future. There is a lot of action. But in the beginning of a system would all the realms be empty? Where does the the first sentient life come from? I believe that once the environmental conditions and the evolutionary process have reached a certain point, the first rebirth occurs. The first sentient life arrives. And it would seem that it would have to be from another world system that recently collapsed. It would seem that it would have to follow the same process it follows now. And then it would just keep going. And the number of beings would grow and grow. I believe this goes along nicely with the current scientific theories as well.

I have heard many stories about beings from the heavenly realms that die, are reborn as human beings and then completely degenerate, even to the point of eventually being reborn in the hells. So I think there is some validity to this passage. So I guess another question is, would the first "human beings" in a newly formed world system automatically be from the heavenly realms? Is that a distinct part of the natural process?

I hope I didn't go too far for my second post.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Kim OHara
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by Kim OHara »

Hello, SDC,
Just by way of encouragement: your post was fine - for a second post or any other post. Keep thinking, keep contributing. :smile:

You seem to be looking for ways to make the cosmology logically consistent with itself and with western science. It would be good if it could be done, but I don't think it can. Sure, we can find points of agreement and points of similarity but there are enough differences to stop them coming together completely.
And neither side will (or can) let the differences be ignored.
Science always asks for proof of anything it is asked to accept - that's what makes it science.
Religion nearly always refuses to negotiate, saying, 'We believe this unquestioningly because it comes to us from our highest authority.' Buddhism is, by far, not the worst in this way but there are certainly Buddhists who show this attitude.
So what do we, as modern people in a world that runs on science, do?
The Dalai Lama, no less, has said that where Buddhist cosmology conflicts with science, Buddhist cosmology must give way. That's good enough for me.

:anjali:
Kim
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pink_trike
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

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Kim O'Hara wrote: The Dalai Lama, no less, has said that where Buddhist cosmology conflicts with science, Buddhist cosmology must give way.
Dalai Lama wrote:If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview.
You'll never hear the reverse coming out of a scientist's mouth. :tongue:

Scientists "discover" things all the time that our premodern ancestors knew - heck, they "discover" things that my grandparents knew.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mawkish1983
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

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pink_trike wrote:You'll never hear the reverse coming out of a scientist's mouth. :tongue:
... I will not bite... I will not bite...
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SDC
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by SDC »

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Kim.

Its funny...before I got deeply involved in the teachings, I thought I NEEDED to know the deepest secrets of both physics and cosmology to discover any purpose in life. What an exhausting, yet exciting pursuit. While it is far from a priority now, my mind will occasionally update my cosmological view with newly discovered Buddhist and scientific ideas. I can't help it sometimes. Especially with the stunning parallels between Buddhism and the theories of dark matter, dark energy, and string theory!!!!
Laurens wrote:I don't tend to spend an awful lot of time thinking about this kind of thing. Maybe it is useful to some practitioners, I don't know. However for me, thinking about cosmology, doesn't benefit my practice, so I don't tend to partake in it.
I get you, and I agree. But some of the first Buddhist books I read were about the parallels between scientific and Buddhist ideas. Those books closed the enormous gap between science and spirituality that I had in my mind. I eventually shifted away from that type of book and began looking for the central teachings of Buddhism. That eventually brought me to Theravada. So it is important to me in that sense.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
pink_trike wrote:You'll never hear the reverse coming out of a scientist's mouth.
... I will not bite... I will not bite...
Rolling your eyes and shrugging your shoulders is enough.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote: The Dalai Lama, no less, has said that where Buddhist cosmology conflicts with science, Buddhist cosmology must give way.
Dalai Lama wrote:If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview.
You'll never hear the reverse coming out of a scientist's mouth.
Coming out of a scientist's mouth:
Stephen Jay Gould wrote: A set of ideas that cannot, in principle, be falsified is not science.

The entire creationist program includes little more than a rhetorical attempt to falsify evolution by presenting supposed contradictions among its supporters. Their brand of creationism, they claim, is "scientific" because it follows the Popperian model in trying to demolish evolution. Yet Popper's argument must apply in both directions. One does not become a scientist by the simple act of trying to falsify a rival and truly scientific system; one has to present an alternative system that also meets Popper's criterion — it too must be falsifiable in principle.

"Scientific creationism" is a self-contradictory, nonsense phrase precisely because it cannot be falsified. I can envision observations and experiments that would disprove any evolutionary theory I know, but I cannot imagine what potential data could lead creationists to abandon their beliefs.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/ ... heory.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by PeterB »

pink_trike wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote: The Dalai Lama, no less, has said that where Buddhist cosmology conflicts with science, Buddhist cosmology must give way.
Dalai Lama wrote:If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview.
You'll never hear the reverse coming out of a scientist's mouth. :tongue:

Scientists "discover" things all the time that our premodern ancestors knew - heck, they "discover" things that my grandparents knew.
I know this is tangental to the point being made, but " no less" ? I am sure that Tenzing Gyatso is a good monk, a conscientious practitioner of his own tradition and all round spiffing chap, but why should a non Vajrayana Buddhist see his view on Cosmology, or indeed anything, no matter how incidentally agreeable, as definitive ?
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by Kim OHara »

PeterB wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote: The Dalai Lama, no less, has said that where Buddhist cosmology conflicts with science, Buddhist cosmology must give way.
I know this is tangental to the point being made, but " no less" ? I am sure that Tenzing Gyatso is a good monk, a conscientious practitioner of his own tradition and all round spiffing chap, but why should a non Vajrayana Buddhist see his view on Cosmology, or indeed anything, no matter how incidentally agreeable, as definitive ?
Relax, Peter -
I didn't say it was definitive, but having such a 'good monk, a conscientious practitioner of his own tradition and all round spiffing chap' on my side does encourage me to think that my beliefs on the subject are not too wildly unreasonable.

:namaste:
Kim
PeterB
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by PeterB »

I am quite relaxed thank you.
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by alan »

Haven't found any evidence of the Buddha claiming direct knowledge of this cosmology. Did he just use it as a way of relating to people who did believe it?
I understand that contradicting prevailing beliefs would stir up debate--perhaps he thought that would create too many problems?
Was this standard thought at the time, or distinctly Buddhist? Perhaps a later addition?

There is so much to admire in the teachings, but I guess the rational part of my brain still hesitates at full commitment when I encounter stuff like this.

Please help!
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Kim OHara
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by Kim OHara »

Hi, Alan,
If you read earlier parts of the thread you will see my rational brain hesitating about some of this stuff, too. :smile:

I don't know much about when and where it all appears in the scriptures but my impression is that the basic 'geography' of the world is pretty much common to Brahminism and early Buddhism, i.e. the Buddha didn't introduce a completely new structure but accepted current thought. Later, I think (again, I'm no expert), Mahayana Buddhism, especially in its Tibetan branch, elaborated enormously on that.
You will have plenty of company if you mentally mark it 'doubtful but non-essential' and get on with the core practices.

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by tiltbillings »

Kim O'Hara wrote: I don't know much about when and where it all appears in the scriptures but my impression is that the basic 'geography' of the world is pretty much common to Brahminism and early Buddhism, i.e. the Buddha didn't introduce a completely new structure but accepted current thought.
What one finds is that Buddha takes the "geography" of the Brahmins and reframes it, giving it a Buddhist point of view - that is conditioned and impermanent, without atman or an unchanging creator god. I do not think - or see any need to - take these things literally. I rather doubt they were meant to be taken so.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by alan »

Ok, that is the best response I've heard; I'll take it. Reframe. I like that. Thanks.
Laurens
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Re: How does Buddhist cosmology relate to mundane experience?

Post by Laurens »

Kim O'Hara wrote: The Dalai Lama, no less, has said that where Buddhist cosmology conflicts with science, Buddhist cosmology must give way. That's good enough for me.
With the greatest respect to His Holiness, whilst I agree with that quote, I find it odd that he has banned the worship of a particular deity on the grounds of superstition - which has lead to its followers being subject to horrendous oppression, yet he publicly states that Buddhism should be up to date with modern science. I can see a condradiction there.

I don't mean to be disrespectful in posting this, but I also think that it is dangerous to place His Holiness beyond criticism.

Oh and no I do not work for the Chinese Government :spy:

:focus:
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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