Stream enterers and sexual desire

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Tom
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Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Tom »

Does attaining stream entry decrease sexual desire?
perkele
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by perkele »

As far as I understand: No.
Only at attaining sakadagami (once-returner), the fetters of sensual desire and ill-will are weakened.
At least that is the only thing I know being explicitly stated in the texts on this matter.
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cjmacie
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by cjmacie »

Tom wrote:Does attaining stream entry decrease sexual desire?
Depends on how one thinks of "desire".

I.e. there are hormonal sensations that arise, and then there's how the mind entertains, deals with them -- two different areas of experience.

Sotapanna implies, by my sources, rather firmly established virtue (sila), i.e. restraint.

Perhaps one could say that yes, the experience of sexual desire would have to be markedly decreased, referring to the mind's dwelling upon, elaboration, pre-occupation with it. On arising, most likely immediately countered by well-trained skills at defusing, diverting from, substituting better things to direct attention at.
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Zom
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Zom »

I also think it is weakened to some extent - but not to a degree worth mentioning, unlike the case with a once-returner.
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CedarTree
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by CedarTree »

perkele wrote:As far as I understand: No.
Only at attaining sakadagami (once-returner), the fetters of sensual desire and ill-will are weakened.
At least that is the only thing I know being explicitly stated in the texts on this matter.
As far as I understand the Pali Canon this is on the button. Commentarial literature may differ.


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massara
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by massara »

In my opinion, becoming a sotapanna doesn`t necessarily reduces sexual desire. A sotapanna still have sexual desire but he/she will not go to extremes such as raping someone, cheating his/her partner, abusing children and so on.
This kind of person is unable to do anything that leads to rebirth in the lower worlds.
The Sotapanna only removed the three first fetters: self delusion, skeptical doubt and attachment to precepts and rites.
They reduced greed, anger, aversion, delusion and ignorance. Avijja is still there, but in a more reduced level because now they can see nature as it really is.
So, sexual desire still does exist, and it will only be significantly reduced when reaching Sakadagami stage.
And at last, be totally removed in the Anagami stage.
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justindesilva
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by justindesilva »

CedarTree wrote:
perkele wrote:As far as I understand: No.
Only at attaining sakadagami (once-returner), the fetters of sensual desire and ill-will are weakened.
At least that is the only thing I know being explicitly stated in the texts on this matter.
As far as I understand the Pali Canon this is on the button. Commentarial literature may differ.
In attaining the 4 stages of marga phala to be an arhant the first stage is sotapanna which is a stream enterer.
In becoming a sotapanna one has to overcome the 1st 3 fetters which are
1. Belief in a self
2.doubt in budda or budda darma ( vicikicca)
3. Ascetic rules or rituals
All these 3 does not include overcoming sexual desires.

The next stage being the once returner to become a sakadagami one has to overcome the 4th and fifth fetters which are
4.sensual desires
5. ill will
As shown here hence a sotapanna before becoming a sakadagsmi is still with sexual desires thereby indulging in sexualities.
Garrib
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Garrib »

Yes my understanding is that it is possible (likely) some desire will remain at that stage, but that the stream enterer might also be living a celibate life.
dunner079
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by dunner079 »

Having attained Sotapanna when I was 17 I can only say desire became more aggressive and intense for many years.

Sexual desire was one of the main senses that was significantly heightened along with anger and other obsessions. I felt a little cheated by the whole experience expecting to have been released from my mind's suffering. Instead, my ego enforced itself and made a very large scale-up of its defense and sexual compulsion was a big part of this.

As the years went on and having been a very traumatic experience for me experiencing no self and stream entry I have come to terms with it of sorts becoming more and more embedded and subtle.

Now my sexual desire is nowhere near what it was along with hatred, fear, and attachment but of course, getting older is a big part of this. I still have all these desires and they do arise like any normal human mind but the grip on which they have is weak and short.
chownah
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by chownah »

dunner079 wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:59 pm Having attained Sotapanna when I was 17 I can only say desire became more aggressive and intense for many years.

Sexual desire was one of the main senses that was significantly heightened along with anger and other obsessions. I felt a little cheated by the whole experience expecting to have been released from my mind's suffering. Instead, my ego enforced itself and made a very large scale-up of its defense and sexual compulsion was a big part of this.

As the years went on and having been a very traumatic experience for me experiencing no self and stream entry I have come to terms with it of sorts becoming more and more embedded and subtle.

Now my sexual desire is nowhere near what it was along with hatred, fear, and attachment but of course, getting older is a big part of this. I still have all these desires and they do arise like any normal human mind but the grip on which they have is weak and short.
Seems like you are describing pretty much the normal development of sexuality for the typical male human whether they attain anything or not.

Now if you had been 70 years old and this happened it would be more meaningful.....if you could teach other 70 year olds how to do this you could get really really rich and put the viagra people out of business....or at least make a big dent in their profits.
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SarathW
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by SarathW »

Visaka (a female) was a Sotapanna and she had about ten children.
The way I understand only Anagami does not have any sexual desire.
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SteRo
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by SteRo »

Tom wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:00 am Does attaining stream entry decrease sexual desire?
No. Attenuation occurs with Once-Returner, not before. However the sotapanna does not conceptually self-identify with sexual desire anymore, his self does not conceptually depend on the satisfaction of sexual desire anymore. Thus a sotapanna will neither seek sexual pleasure nor sexual relief anymore and will not entertain thoughts about sexual pleasures, fantasies and the like.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Aloka
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Aloka »

SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:23 am
Tom wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:00 am Does attaining stream entry decrease sexual desire?
No. Attenuation occurs with Once-Returner, not before. However the sotapanna does not conceptually self-identify with sexual desire anymore, his self does not conceptually depend on the satisfaction of sexual desire anymore. Thus a sotapanna will neither seek sexual pleasure nor sexual relief anymore and will not entertain thoughts about sexual pleasures, fantasies and the like.
Can you give sutta references for your assertions, please?


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SteRo
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by SteRo »

Aloka wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:51 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:23 am
Tom wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:00 am Does attaining stream entry decrease sexual desire?
No. Attenuation occurs with Once-Returner, not before. However the sotapanna does not conceptually self-identify with sexual desire anymore, his self does not conceptually depend on the satisfaction of sexual desire anymore. Thus a sotapanna will neither seek sexual pleasure nor sexual relief anymore and will not entertain thoughts about sexual pleasures, fantasies and the like.
Can you give sutta references for your assertions, please?


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It's a summary conclusion regarding sexual desire taking into account what has been explicitly said in many suttas about the marks of abandonment of the fetters in terms of sotapanna, once-returner, non-returner and arahant. In order to make that conclusion one has to take into account what is said about the fetter sensual desire and the chain of habits associated with sensual desire. And one necessarily has to take into account what is said in sutta about once-returner, non-retuerner and arahant in the context of all fetters.
So it's the result of in depth study taking into account also some commentaries and as such this summary conclusion cannot be found in a sutta explicitly.
Anyone here is free to state a different conclusion as to sotapanna and sexual desire and associated habits and I may show the inconsistencies of such a different conclusion if there are any.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
chownah
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by chownah »

SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:28 am
Aloka wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:51 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:23 am

No. Attenuation occurs with Once-Returner, not before. However the sotapanna does not conceptually self-identify with sexual desire anymore, his self does not conceptually depend on the satisfaction of sexual desire anymore. Thus a sotapanna will neither seek sexual pleasure nor sexual relief anymore and will not entertain thoughts about sexual pleasures, fantasies and the like.
Can you give sutta references for your assertions, please?


.

It's a summary conclusion regarding sexual desire taking into account what has been explicitly said in many suttas about the marks of abandonment of the fetters in terms of sotapanna, once-returner, non-returner and arahant. In order to make that conclusion one has to take into account what is said about the fetter sensual desire and the chain of habits associated with sensual desire. And one necessarily has to take into account what is said in sutta about once-returner, non-retuerner and arahant in the context of all fetters.
So it's the result of in depth study taking into account also some commentaries and as such this summary conclusion cannot be found in a sutta explicitly.
Anyone here is free to state a different conclusion as to sotapanna and sexual desire and associated habits and I may show the inconsistencies of such a different conclusion if there are any.
Since the things you assert are not stated in the suttas (as you admit) then it seems that your assertions are construals based on your interpretations of various texts and as I think that you have declared as being non-theravadan it seems plausible that there might be some influence from non-theravadan sources. Interpreting and construing is fine....we all do it....when I do it I try to make it understood what are my interpretations and construals although sometimes I am too lax in doing this. I try to avoid the tone which sounds like I am defining what is the buddha dhamma by just declaring my construals as the way things are which is how your post sounds to me.....so its good that we now know that what you have posted is just your construal based on your interpetations (if that is what it is) and not a declaration of what is found in the suttas (if that is what it is not). (Note: notice how I have included "if that is what it is" and "if that is what it is not". I do this to indicate that I am not trying to announce what you post as being definitively this or that and that I am allowing the space that my estimations may be wrong.)
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