Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

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Kare
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by Kare » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:20 pm

Chris wrote:Yes, Kare, you've posted that untranslated quote before in:
Those good old light bulbs again ...
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... lbs#p12612" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
which was on-topic and appropriate in The Lounge.
I know. Words of Dhamma stand being repeated.
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Kåre

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Annapurna
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by Annapurna » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:45 am

Kare wrote:
Chris wrote: Why are you writing nonsense in a thread where a member is respectfully asking about the Dhamma?
Been to the Office Xmas Party?

karuna
Chris
Your comment was not very respectful. But I'll most respectfully suggest that you study this short excerpt from the Patisambhidamagga:

Hāsapaññatāya saṃvattantīti katamā hāsapaññā? Idhekacco hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo sīlāni paripūretīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo indriyasaṃvaraṃ paripūretīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo bhojane mattaññutaṃ paripūretīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo jāgariyānuyogaṃ paripūretīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo sīlakkhandhaṃ…pe… samādhikkhandhaṃ… paññākkhandhaṃ… vimuttikkhandhaṃ… vimuttiñāṇadassanakkhandhaṃ paripūretīti…pe… ṭhānāṭṭhānāni paṭivijjhatīti… vihārasamāpattiyo paripūretīti … ariyasaccāni paṭivijjhatīti… satipaṭṭhāne bhāvetīti… sammappadhāne bhāvetīti… iddhipāde bhāvetīti… indriyāni bhāvetīti… balāni bhāvetīti… bojjhaṅge bhāvetīti … ariyamaggaṃ bhāvetīti…pe… sāmaññaphalāni sacchikarotīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo abhiññāyo paṭivijjhatīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo paramatthaṃ nibbānaṃ sacchikarotīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsapaññatāya saṃvattantīti – ayaṃ hāsapaññā.
Kare, what you said was witty, but not very useful!

It didn't answer my questions, as Chris said. I also wasn't sure if you don't :P me... :evil: .... but I disregarded that as a mere speculation and assumed good intentions. :smile:

Either way, I also have no use for your pali quote!

Of what use is that to me, if no english version is added,- so please have some metta and deliver one for me (et alii) as well, German is welcome too, if you have.

Ty

8-)

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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by Kare » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:30 pm

Annabel wrote:
Kare wrote:
Chris wrote: Why are you writing nonsense in a thread where a member is respectfully asking about the Dhamma?
Been to the Office Xmas Party?

karuna
Chris
Your comment was not very respectful. But I'll most respectfully suggest that you study this short excerpt from the Patisambhidamagga:

Hāsapaññatāya saṃvattantīti katamā hāsapaññā? Idhekacco hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo sīlāni paripūretīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo indriyasaṃvaraṃ paripūretīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo bhojane mattaññutaṃ paripūretīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo jāgariyānuyogaṃ paripūretīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo sīlakkhandhaṃ…pe… samādhikkhandhaṃ… paññākkhandhaṃ… vimuttikkhandhaṃ… vimuttiñāṇadassanakkhandhaṃ paripūretīti…pe… ṭhānāṭṭhānāni paṭivijjhatīti… vihārasamāpattiyo paripūretīti … ariyasaccāni paṭivijjhatīti… satipaṭṭhāne bhāvetīti… sammappadhāne bhāvetīti… iddhipāde bhāvetīti… indriyāni bhāvetīti… balāni bhāvetīti… bojjhaṅge bhāvetīti … ariyamaggaṃ bhāvetīti…pe… sāmaññaphalāni sacchikarotīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo abhiññāyo paṭivijjhatīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsabahulo vedabahulo tuṭṭhibahulo pāmojjabahulo paramatthaṃ nibbānaṃ sacchikarotīti – hāsapaññā. Hāsapaññatāya saṃvattantīti – ayaṃ hāsapaññā.
Kare, what you said was witty, but not very useful!

It didn't answer my questions, as Chris said. I also wasn't sure if you don't :P me... :evil: .... but I disregarded that as a mere speculation and assumed good intentions. :smile:

Either way, I also have no use for your pali quote!

Of what use is that to me, if no english version is added,- so please have some metta and deliver one for me (et alii) as well, German is welcome too, if you have.

Ty

8-)
Buddha often adviced against speculations and questions that are not leading to liberation. Sometimes he outright rejected those questions. At other times he did it with jokes and satire. Some of the best known examples of this is probably the Brahmajalasutta and the Kevaddhasutta.

My quote from the Patisambhidamagga says more about this method. It is better to read it in Pali, but here is an abbreviated rendering of the main contents of that quote:

Those who are filled with smiles and laughter, will perfect the virtues. That is smiling wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will also attain perfect concentration and wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will attain the path and the direct knowledges, and they will quickly realize the ultimate meaning, nibbana.

So we ought to remember that speculations that are not conducive to liberation, is a waste of time. It is better to lighten up a little, drop the speculations and smile. For smiles, jokes and laughter may lead straight to nibbana. :D
Mettāya,
Kåre

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tiltbillings
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:57 pm

Kare wrote: here is an abbreviated rendering of the main contents of that quote:

Those who are filled with smiles and laughter, will perfect the virtues. That is smiling wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will also attain perfect concentration and wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will attain the path and the direct knowledges, and they will quickly realize the ultimate meaning, nibbana.

So we ought to remember that speculations that are not conducive to liberation, is a waste of time. It is better to lighten up a little, drop the speculations and smile. For smiles, jokes and laughter may lead straight to nibbana.
Wonderful. Any idea where this might be in the Ven Nyanamoli translation?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by Kare » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:33 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Kare wrote: here is an abbreviated rendering of the main contents of that quote:

Those who are filled with smiles and laughter, will perfect the virtues. That is smiling wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will also attain perfect concentration and wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will attain the path and the direct knowledges, and they will quickly realize the ultimate meaning, nibbana.

So we ought to remember that speculations that are not conducive to liberation, is a waste of time. It is better to lighten up a little, drop the speculations and smile. For smiles, jokes and laughter may lead straight to nibbana.
Wonderful. Any idea where this might be in the Ven Nyanamoli translation?
It is on p. 372, para XXI 17. But I'm not so happy with that translation. I rather prefer "smiling wisdom" for "laughing understanding". Besides, the paragraph is part of a series, and is abbreviated with dots and [and so on ...], so it is easy to miss the real gem of the contents. But the penultimate sentence of the paragraph is clear and written out without abbreviation in his translation: "With much laughter, blitheness, content and gladness he realizes the ultimate meaning, nibbana, thus it is laughing understanding."

This video may illustrate this idea:



:D
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Kåre

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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by DNS » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:08 pm

Kare wrote: My quote from the Patisambhidamagga says more about this method. It is better to read it in Pali, but here is an abbreviated rendering of the main contents of that quote:
Those who are filled with smiles and laughter, will perfect the virtues. That is smiling wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will also attain perfect concentration and wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will attain the path and the direct knowledges, and they will quickly realize the ultimate meaning, nibbana.
Excellent! I included that to update this article at DhammaWiki, with reference back to here:

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... d_laughter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by Annapurna » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:24 pm

Kare wrote: here is an abbreviated rendering of the main contents of that quote:

Those who are filled with smiles and laughter, will perfect the virtues. That is smiling wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will also attain perfect concentration and wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will attain the path and the direct knowledges, and they will quickly realize the ultimate meaning, nibbana.

So we ought to remember that speculations that are not conducive to liberation, is a waste of time. It is better to lighten up a little, drop the speculations and smile. For smiles, jokes and laughter may lead straight to nibbana. :D
This is really a wonderful piece, thank you for sharing it! I've been looking for something like this and will definitely save it.

However, as Chris above quotes show, the Buddha replied in depth and detail to the questions I asked information about, so I don't think the Buddha tought of them as of having a speculative nature.... such as for instance the monks pondering about future rebirths ... :D

:anjali:

Thanks again!

Will read the suttas you gave asap.

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Kare
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by Kare » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:37 pm

Annabel wrote:
Kare wrote: here is an abbreviated rendering of the main contents of that quote:

Those who are filled with smiles and laughter, will perfect the virtues. That is smiling wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will also attain perfect concentration and wisdom. Those who are filled with smiles and laughter will attain the path and the direct knowledges, and they will quickly realize the ultimate meaning, nibbana.

So we ought to remember that speculations that are not conducive to liberation, is a waste of time. It is better to lighten up a little, drop the speculations and smile. For smiles, jokes and laughter may lead straight to nibbana. :D
This is really a wonderful piece, thank you for sharing it! I've been looking for something like this and will definitely save it.

However, as Chris above quotes show, the Buddha replied in depth and detail to the questions I asked information about, so I don't think the Buddha tought of them as of having a speculative nature.... such as for instance the monks pondering about future rebirths ... :D
OK. So let's just smile and accept that we have a little different view of this question.

:bow:
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Kåre

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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:43 pm

Kare wrote:
It is on p. 372, para XXI 17. But I'm not so happy with that translation. I rather prefer "smiling wisdom" for "laughing understanding". Besides, the paragraph is part of a series, and is abbreviated with dots and [and so on ...], so it is easy to miss the real gem of the contents. But the penultimate sentence of the paragraph is clear and written out without abbreviation in his translation: "With much laughter, blitheness, content and gladness he realizes the ultimate meaning, nibbana, thus it is laughing understanding."
Thanks. Unfortunately Ven N's translation, having not been a finished, polished work, really is not very user freindly, though I do like the line of his you quoted. Again, thanks for your translation and for bringing this to light.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Kare
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Post by Kare » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:00 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Kare wrote:
It is on p. 372, para XXI 17. But I'm not so happy with that translation. I rather prefer "smiling wisdom" for "laughing understanding". Besides, the paragraph is part of a series, and is abbreviated with dots and [and so on ...], so it is easy to miss the real gem of the contents. But the penultimate sentence of the paragraph is clear and written out without abbreviation in his translation: "With much laughter, blitheness, content and gladness he realizes the ultimate meaning, nibbana, thus it is laughing understanding."
Thanks. Unfortunately Ven N's translation, having not been a finished, polished work, really is not very user freindly, though I do like the line of his you quoted. Again, thanks for your translation and for bringing this to light.
The Patisambhidamagga may be rather scholastic and heavy reading at times, but there are also many gems in this work. It is like an encyclopedia of Theravada, giving many interesting definitions of terms - so I'm quite fond of it. I have translated the whole paragraph on Hasapañña into Norwegian. Maybe I'll try to produce an English version of it some day. But right now I am struggling with translating the chapter on Anapanasati (into Norwegian), translating also the commentary (and adding a few excerpts from the subcommentary). I've no idea when this work will be finished ... those texts are not the easiest I have tried my hand on ...

Buddhaghosa used the Patisambhidamagga quite a lot when he wrote his Visuddhimagga, so this book has an important place in the Theravada position, somewhere between the Nikayas (well, formally it is a part of the Khuddaka Nikaya, but in many ways it rather looks like an Abhidhamma text), the Abhidhamma and the commentaries.
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