Why do Thai monks smoke?

[BasementBuddhist]

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that the battle was against Clinging to ones desires. I was taught that attachment just means blowing the perceived positives or negatives of a thing way out of proportion. So could we not have desires if we recognize them as desire, see them for exactly as they are, make them no greater or lesser than they are? Desire is a thing in the world. It is part of being human. I come on dhamma wheel because I desire to improve my practice. I eat food because I desire to go on living, so I can practice. Desires ARE. We make decisions every day. If we recognize desire as desire, and see it for its naked being, with no extra connotations, then isn't it just like anything else? A tree? A river? The wind? Something that IS?

So if the Thai monks are smoking because it is a choice they have made, something they have said yes to, and they aren't doing it due to addiction or craving then where is the unskillfulness in it?

[santa100]

So if the Thai monks are smoking because it is a choice they have made, something they have said yes to, and they aren't doing it due to addiction or craving then where is the unskillfulness in it?

One should always question the purpose of the choice they have made. Just like those monks have made the choice of smoking, they should seriously question the ultimate purpose of why they also made the choice of shaving their heads to become monks? Is it to continue to carry on business as usual or there's a lot more effort to be made, to see danger in the slightest faults? If putting an end to all cravings and defilements is the purpose then obviously they still have work to be done for even if they smoke without addiction or craving, ie doing it just for the heck of it, it's still not the proper attitude a monk should have when it comes to food consumption as already highlighted in AN 4.159. Now there's no benefit in speculating about those famous teachers' attainment. Afterall, it's the "teaching", not the "teacher", that we should focus on:

This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk, considering it thoughtfully, takes food—not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification—but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, [thinking,] ‘Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.’ Then he eventually abandons food, having relied on food. ‘This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

[User156079]

[SarathW]

Afterall, it's the "teaching", not the "teacher", that we should focus on:

My father used to consume alcohol and smoked cigars.
However, he advised us to not to consume alcohol and smoke cigars.
I am sure he was a good teacher but I never listened to him.
I think a good teacher has to practice what he preaches.

One reason I gave up consuming alcohol is that I am a Dhamma teacher now.
I have meditation classes in my residence every week.
I feel that I am a hypocrite if I consume alcohol and ask other to observe the precepts.

Can we take the refuge of a teacher who does not practice?

[SarathW]

The harm you are implicating here is a trifle compared to the harm to other beings that will be caused by not understanding tanha and kāmacchando

Isn't smoking tanha and kamachando?

[Jojola]

The harm you are implicating here is a trifle compared to the harm to other beings that will be caused by not understanding tanha and kāmacchando

Isn't smoking tanha and kamachando?

Like any action, it depends. imo

[freedom]

If one delights, craving will increase. With craving as condition, clinging comes to be... One is not free from suffering.

If one does not delight in smoking, why does one smoke? When one smokes, how does one feel? If not pleasant, why does one continue to smoke? Is smoking a must to maintain one's life? If not, why does one continue to smoke if this is not one's delight or craving?

[SarathW]

Freedom!

[Luca123]

Not that I smoke, or condone it, but it seems to me that smoking tobacco does not cause heedlessness in the sense that alcohol etc do.

Has anyone ever seen someone run around outside naked, screaming, banging pots and pans at 2 AM, because they smoke cigarettes? I've seen alcohol and other drugs do that to people, but never tobacco.

Still tobacco leads to dependence and craving.
Which is the enemy numer one, as far as I have been told, of someone looking for enlightnment

Is Nicotine Addictive?

Tobacco PlantsMost smokers identify tobacco use as harmful and express a desire to reduce or stop using it, and nearly 35 million want to quit each year.
Yes. Most smokers use tobacco regularly because they are addicted to nicotine. Addiction is characterized by compulsive drug seeking and abuse, even in the face of negative health consequences. It is well documented that most smokers identify tobacco use as harmful and express a desire to reduce or stop using it, and nearly 35 million of them want to quit each year. Unfortunately, more than 85 percent of those who try to quit on their own relapse, most within a week.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/ ... -addictive

Just as there is no smoke without fire, there is no smoking without craving.

I would agree with this. However, Ajahn Mun and Ajahn Chah were both widely considered to be arahants. Both of them were smokers. When I learned that, I sighed, threw up my hands and wondered if I was really missing something here...

What you are saying is definitely interesting to me and raises quite a few questions..

[Jojola]

If one delights, craving will increase.

Wrong: if one attends inappropriately then craving will increase.
There are times when the Buddha delighted in things, such as sound gatherings of Arahants, delighted in solitude, delighted in warming his back in the sun late in the day...

Just as there is no smoke without fire, there is no smoking without craving.

I would agree with this.

Why? It's not true. Not everyone who takes up a cigarette does so out of craving or addiction, this is a fact, not only can I speak of this one thing for this myself but it was true about a lot of things I used to do when I was younger, including having a drink, which I don't do anymore, but when I did it was the same situation, some can simply take it or leave it (as for someone who retorts "then why don't they just leave it?" said person is likely prejudice and hung up on a personal social bias); and for them whether it's taken up or let go of there's little, if any, kammic result- as opposed to someone who is addicted.

Or explained another way when I discontinued using those things, it was NOT a victory, why? Because it wasn't a problem in the first place; letting it go was just a personal choice the same as would be if I were to take it up. I'm sure these had almost, if not, zero kammic renewal as opposed to other actions going on with my body, speech, and mind, about as significant as picking up this pencil on my desk or putting it down, putting on a shirt or taking it off - everything depends on the mind, 1st line of the dhammapada!

However, Ajahn Mun and Ajahn Chah were both widely considered to be arahants. Both of them were smokers. When I learned that, I sighed, threw up my hands and wondered if I was really missing something here...

I would say yeah you're missing a few things:
1. The points I mentioned above.
2. Someone who 'smokes' doesn't necessarily mean they smoke all day, or even once a day, or even once a week, or even once a month... It could just mean "it is not past myself to take up a cigarette on a special occasion, or certain social situations, or in a time of ease and leisure". There are some things that really are "just because" and anyone who denies this should take a close look at their own actions, their own preferences, the items they decor themselves or their homes with etc...
3. Prejudice and social bias is preventing people from properly investigating and contemplating the matter; and in fair consequence are missing out on reaping the benefits of having comprehension.

There really should be a psychological study on this, if there hasn't been one already.

[Luca123]

Why? It's not true. Not everyone who takes up a cigarette does so out of craving or addiction, this is a fact, not only can I speak of this one thing for this myself but it was true about a lot of things I used to do when I was younger, including having a drink, which I don't do anymore, but when I did it was the same situation, some can simply take it or leave it (as for someone who retorts "then why don't they just leave it?" said person is likely prejudice and hung up on a personal social bias); and for them whether it's taken up or let go of there's little, if any, kammic result- as opposed to someone who is addicted.

I think that, looking at the Tipitaka and at what senior monks may say, drinking alcohol for a monk is always a no-no.
You can not claim you can drink as you are not doing it out of addiction

Maybe some reader with more knowledge of the scriptures than I do can confirm or not

[freedom]

If one delights, craving will increase.

Wrong: if one attends inappropriately then craving will increase.
There are times when the Buddha delighted in things, such as sound gatherings of Arahants, delighted in solitude, delighted in warming his back in the sun late in the day...

With the arising of delight, I say, Migajala, there is the arising of suffering. SN 35.64
How should one attend properly when one smokes so that craving will not increase?

[BasementBuddhist]

Why? It's not true. Not everyone who takes up a cigarette does so out of craving or addiction, this is a fact, not only can I speak of this one thing for this myself but it was true about a lot of things I used to do when I was younger, including having a drink, which I don't do anymore, but when I did it was the same situation, some can simply take it or leave it (as for someone who retorts "then why don't they just leave it?" said person is likely prejudice and hung up on a personal social bias); and for them whether it's taken up or let go of there's little, if any, kammic result- as opposed to someone who is addicted.

Or explained another way when I discontinued using those things, it was NOT a victory, why? Because it wasn't a problem in the first place; letting it go was just a personal choice the same as would be if I were to take it up. I'm sure these had almost, if not, zero kammic renewal as opposed to other actions going on with my body, speech, and mind, about as significant as picking up this pencil on my desk or putting it down, putting on a shirt or taking it off - everything depends on the mind, 1st line of the dhammapada!

Thank you! This is precisely what I was trying to say with my own post, and am glad to see it expressed here with far more grace.

Another example, I sometimes hitchhike to get to places I want to go for vacation, so I can save money for actual events when I get there. If someone offers me a cigarette while I ride with them, I always accept. Not because I am addicted, or because I crave one, but to ease social tensions and create a bond with my driver.

[freedom]

When one smokes, does one see the danger of smoking? The drawback of it? The escape from it? and the way to end that danger? Or one sees the safety of it, the advantage of it, the necessity of it, and the way to continue that action. We can honestly ask ourselves to see where are we leaning to.

[aflatun]

The harm you are implicating here is a trifle compared to the harm to other beings that will be caused by not understanding tanha and kāmacchando

Isn't smoking tanha and kamachando?

Isn't eating?