The Debate Of King Milinda

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yawares
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Re: The Debate : Root/Sense/Beginning

Post by yawares » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:35 pm

yawares wrote:Dear Members,

#26. “Is the ultimate beginning of everything unknown.”

“Partly so and partly not.”

“Then which so and which not?”

“Whatever condition preceded this birth, that is to us as if it had not been. In reference to that, the ultimate beginning is not known. However, that which has not been comes into existence, and as soon as it has arisen it disappears again. With reference to that the ultimate beginning can be known.”

yawares :anjali:
Dear Bhikkhu Pesala,

A Sariputtadhamma-member asked me this question...I searched yahoo BUT I couldn't find the answer.
--------------
" Dear Yawares,

I am curious as to the meaning of this last two sentences of your quote:

"However, that which has not been comes into existence, and as soon as it has
arisen it disappears again. With reference to that the ultimate beginning can be
known."

I do not have a clue how "the ultimate beginning can be known" with reference to
"that"! ....Please elaborate for me?"


-------------
Could you please give me the answer, thank you very much.

With respect,
yawares :anjali:

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yawares
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The Debate : Consciousness/Contact And Feeling

Post by yawares » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:30 pm

Dear Members,

:candle: The Debate of King Milinda :candle:
[ Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala ]


#30. “Does mind-consciousness arise wherever eye-consciousness arises?”

“Yes, O king, where the one is there the other is.”

“Which arises first?”

“First eye-consciousness then mind-consciousness.”


“Does eye-consciousness issue a command to mind-consciousness or vice versa?”

“No, there is no communication between them.”

“Then why is it, Nāgasena, that mind-consciousness arises wherever there is eye-consciousness?”

“Because, O king, there is a tendency, an opening, a habit and an association.”


“Give me an illustration.”

“If a king’s border town had a strong wall and only one gateway and a man wanted to leave the town, which way would he go?”

“Through the gateway.”

“And if another man left, which way would he go?”

“Through the same gateway.”


“But does the first man issue a command to the second saying, ‘Go out the same way as I do,’ or does the second man tell the first, ‘I will go out the same way as you do’?”

“No venerable sir, there is no communication between them.”

“In the same way mind-consciousness arises wherever there is eye-consciousness but there is no communication between them.”

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#31. “Where there is mind-consciousness, Nāgasena, is there always contact and feeling?”

“Yes, where there is mind-consciousness there is contact and feeling. And also perception, intention, initial application, and sustained application.”


“What is the characteristic mark of contact?”

“Touching.”

“Give me an illustration.”

“As when two rams butt together; the eye is like one ram, visible object is like the other and the butting together of the two is contact.”
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yawares :anjali:

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Will
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Re: The Debate Of King Milinda

Post by Will » Wed May 10, 2017 5:22 pm

Yes this is wonderful Dhamma. This kammic background between the King and the Arahat is only in the full translation.

Long before our buddha there was one named Kassapa. Among his bhikkhus was a novice and one very senior to him. The novice was sweeping up and paying more attention to thinking about buddha Kassapa than his work. The senior bhikkhu told him to carry away some of the garbage and take it to the dump - three times he called out. The novice ignored him, so the senior whacked him with his broom handle. The novice then vowed to ask seniors for clarity regarding the Dhamma and to pay close attention. The senior vowed to be more patient and always respond to Dhamma questions.

Many kappas pass... and the novice is reborn as King Milinda, who does seek out any sagely monastics. Yet he is very advanced himself and really is looking for someone wiser to confirm or deny his understanding. No monastics are qualified to help him, so a plea goes out. There is a very wise deva named Mahasana who is asked and reluctantly agrees to take birth as a human. He does so and quickly masters Abhidhamma and the Tipitaka as bhikkhu Nagasena. Then he meets the King and their discussion begins.

Maybe this shared destiny gives added power to the work and thus its great influence to this day.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Will
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Re: The Debate Of King Milinda

Post by Will » Tue May 16, 2017 4:01 am

When Nagasena agrees to discuss with the King as between learned ones, Horner is not certain about the six words meaning. They may be three pairs dealing with the standard format of a scholarly discussion.

I found an online translation of the Nagasena Sutra, which might be the basis for the longer Pali version. At any rate, the sutra says (from the Chinese):
When the wise converse, they question one
another, solve problems together, agree on and
turn down a point together. Winners or losers, they
know right and wrong, and they themselves know
what is right and what is wrong.
That is clear enough. I.B. Horner renders it as:
When the learned are conversing, sire, a turning
over (of a subject) is made and an unravelling is made
and a refutation is made [29] and a redress is made
and a specific point is made and a specific point is made
against it...
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: The Debate Of King Milinda

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue May 16, 2017 7:23 am

My edition reads:

3. Then the king said, “Venerable sir, will you dis­cuss with me again?”
“If your majesty will discuss as a scholar, yes; but if you will discuss as a king, no.”

“How is it then that scholars discuss?”
“When scholars discuss there is a summing up and an unravelling; one or other is shown to be in error. He admits his mistake, yet he does not become angry.”

“Then how is it that kings discuss?”
“When a king discusses a matter and advan­ces a point of view, if anyone differs from him on that point he is apt to punish him.”

“Very well then, it is as a scholar that I will discuss. Let your rever­ence talk without fear.”
“It is well your majesty.”
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Will
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Re: The Debate Of King Milinda

Post by Will » Tue May 16, 2017 2:06 pm

May we always discuss in the manner of the learned and never lose our temper!

Since the site that had Nagasena Bhikshu Sutra is gone (or at least I cannot find the text online); those who wish a copy, PM me with your email and I can attach it to that, since it is too big to attach here. It has Chinese on facing pages.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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