What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
User avatar
fivebells
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:52 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by fivebells »

SarathW wrote:Can someone explain the meaning of the following:

“Radiant is this consciousness,” (pabhassaram idam cittam) says the Buddha in
the Anguttara Nikāya vol. 1, p. 10. According to the commentator the Buddha
was thus referring to the rebirth-consciousness
You may find Thanissaro's commentary on this helpful. (If this strays outside the rules for this forum, I apologize.)
The commentary maintains that "mind" here refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises more questions than it answers. There is no reference to the bhavanga-citta or the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an Abhidhamma treatise, the Patthana); and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?

<snip>

A more reasonable approach to understanding the statement can be derived from taking it in context: the luminous mind is the mind that the meditator is trying to develop. To perceive its luminosity means understanding that defilements such as greed, aversion, or delusion are not intrinsic to its nature, are not a necessary part of awareness. Without this understanding, it would be impossible to practice. With this understanding, however, one can make an effort to cut away existing defilements, leaving the mind in the stage that MN 24 calls "purity in terms of mind." This would correspond to the luminous level of concentration described in the standard simile for the fourth jhana: "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness." From this state it is possible to develop the discernment that not only cuts away existing defilements but also uproots any potential for them to ever arise again.
SarathW wrote: I found further information please refer to page 329 of the link below. It does not make any sense to me:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... gsurw6.pdf
This link was mangled somehow to an extant that I was unable to reconstruct it.
davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by davidbrainerd »

Translating cittam as consciousness rather than mind is going to create confusion.
SarathW
Posts: 21257
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW »

In the following video (Sinhalese Language) Ven. Abhya describes radiant consciousness as Arahattaphala Samadhi.
I think it is incorrect.

https://youtu.be/Hwk-aKhm0f4?t=201


This is very clear from Ven. Sujato's article.

In either case, there is no suggestion here that the “radiant mind” be connected with Nibbana. Quite the opposite: the whole point of the sutta is that it can be defiled, so it cannot be Nibbana.

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2014/10/29 ... iant-mind/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by aflatun »

nyanasuci wrote:I think that you misunderstood the Sutta you are quoting:
SarathW wrote:'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.
It is the directing of the equanimity, the establishing of it, pure and bright, that it is 'fabricated', not the dimension of the infinite space.
Bhante

Could you unpack this a little further? Are you saying the dimension of infinite space is not fabricated? Or something else?

:anjali:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
SarathW
Posts: 21257
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW »

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Lal
Posts: 949
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by Lal »

SarathW said,
Hi Lal
Could you give your opinion on the Pabhassara Citta in the following link? Please do not answer here.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15567&start=20#p422008
I have discussed pabhassara citta, radiant mind, and bhavanga citta in a new post at my site:
https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

I would be happy to answer any questions.

With metta, Lal
User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by aflatun »

Hah, I didn't notice how old the thread was, thank you Sarath!
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
SarathW
Posts: 21257
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW »

Lal wrote:SarathW said,
Hi Lal
Could you give your opinion on the Pabhassara Citta in the following link? Please do not answer here.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15567&start=20#p422008
I have discussed pabhassara citta, radiant mind, and bhavanga citta in a new post at my site:
https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

I would be happy to answer any questions.

With metta, Lal
Thank you, Lal.
The all good except no support from Sutta. We do not need your personal opinion.

Can you give me reference to :'
The opposite of “pabha sara” is “pabha assara“, where “assara” means “not take part in”. It rhymes as “pabhassara“.
At least give me the reference from Pali Text society.

You said Pabhaassara is a Arahant Citta which I do not agree with. I think you experience these when you are in Jhana. Perhaps the degree may difer. again I need some reference.

Are these Ven. Abhaya's view? Is he agree with your views?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Lal
Posts: 949
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by Lal »

SarathW said
..all good except no support from Sutta. We do not need your personal opinion.
If you have figured it all out, then why have this discussion? I actually only quoted from the Tipitaka:
https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

Also, see #2 below. The key here is which set of baseline interpretation of key Pali words is correct.

1.SarathW said,
“The opposite of “pabha sara” is “pabha assara“, where “assara” means “not take part in”. It rhymes as “pabhassara“.
At least give me the reference from Pali Text society.
-Why do you think the interpretations in the Pali Text Society provide the ultimate truth? I just looked up the “Pali-English Dictionary” by T. W. Rhys Davis, and there many words without clear explanations. It does not have the word “assara”. It says “pabha” is “light, radiance, shine”, which is clearly wrong. As I explained in my post, "pabha" means "repeated bhava". That is consistent in both the verse, "Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ.." and in the word pabhassara as I pointed out in my post.

- sara is "sari sareema" or "asuru kireema" in Sinhala. Most Pali words have similar Sinhala words.

-Have you thought about the fact that those interpretations of Pali words were made by Europeans who had no background in Buddhism (or Pali or Sinhala), let alone any magga phala? (I am not bringing up race or anything else here. In fact, I am thankful to those Europeans who made the whole world aware of the value of Buddha Dhamma, even though they understood only a fraction). Actually, this point is probably easier to grasp for Europeans and people of other backgrounds who know how difficult it is to grasp the meanings of some Pali words. I am impressed by Rhys Davis and other others who were able to grasp as much as they did in the 1800's. But they devoted their whole adult lives to it. Learning Buddha Dhamma is much more difficult than learning a new language. Again, it helps to understand the historical background:
https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... -dhamma-2/

-Buddha Dhamma is not philosophy. The only people who are authorities are who have attained magga phala by practicing it, Ariyas like Waharaka Thero. There are many people with magga phala today, thanks to Waharaka Thero. When you go to Sri Lanka, meet Abhaya Thero and find out how many have attained magga phala in recent years; you can also talk to people who have attained magga phala and Ariya jhana.

2.I have actually quoted from the original suttas, and only from the commentaries that are in the Tipitaka. As I explained, those commentaries outside of the Tipitaka have the opinions of the commentators who came mostly after 400 CE, 900 years after the Buddha when Buddhism was in decline; see the “Historical Background” at the Pure Dhamma site.

-That is why most of the postings at this forum have contradictory information; they quote from either such commentators, or the so-called “scholars” of the present day who rely on such material with errors.

-If anyone can point out that what I have explained is not correct using material only from the Tipitaka, then I can respond.

3.Just because one can quote from another, does not mean it is the correct interpretation (obviously, they don’t believe that either and that is why they are looking for more explanations!). Please keep an open mind and make sure different aspects of what you believe are inter-consistent. If there are contradictions, then one or more of those interpretations must be incorrect. The fact that most of you are quoting others and going around in circles means that you have many unresolved issues.

- Instead of quoting others, state the key idea that you get from that source in your own words, and quote from only the Tipitaka. When you do that you will need to dig deeper and thus realize any problems with that interpretation.

4.If one understands a concept, one should be able to express it clearly, just by quoting from the Tipitaka, not from other sources. Then, if you are interpreting the Tipitaka correctly, all those different explanations (meanings of anicca and anatta, pabhassara citta, bhavanga, etc ) will be inter-consistent. The key is that all those explanations must be inter-consistent.

- For example, I have clearly explained why a bhavanga citta is not a pabhassara citta. If that is not correct, show evidence form the Tipitaka that they are the same. I have explained why only an Arahant phala citta is a pabhassara citta. If it is incorrect, show evidence from the Tipitaka.

5.In my scientist life, I faced a similar problem. Many scientists cannot explain a given physics concept without using many mathematical equations. While it is nice to confirm a theory with mathematical proof, a mathematical proof by itself is not enough. One should be able to explain it in one’s own words; of course one should have the necessary background on the understanding of key basic concepts first. Here it is the same. Actually Buddha Dhamma is much deeper than physics. People try to tackle advanced concepts without understanding that getting rid of dasa akuslala is the key and that is related to advanced concepts like anicca and anatta.

6.Even though I am satisfied with my explanations on these Dhamma concepts (and know that they are inter-consistent), I cannot say that what I stated is the absolute truth. It is up to those who read and contemplate on that material to decide. Even the Buddha said not to believe what he stated without analyzing. This discussion should be about honestly trying to find the true Dhamma, because that is where the only refuge is, in this danger-filled rebirth process.

7.So, I will respond if there is a comment worthwhile responding to.

With Metta, Lal
Last edited by Lal on Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
Posts: 21257
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW »

Are these Ven. Abhaya's view? Is he agree with your views?
Could you respond to this question?
Thanks.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
Posts: 21257
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW »

That is consistent in both the verse, "Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ.." and in the word pabhassara as I pointed out in my post.
So in your opinion "Vinnanam anidassanam" is Nibbana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Lal
Posts: 949
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by Lal »

SarathW said,
Are these Ven. Abhaya's view? Is he agree with your views?
You need to ask him that question. But I would think so, because this is compatible with what Waharaka Thero taught. I met him only briefly a couple of times in 2014/2015 when he was a not yet a bhikkhu. He gave me a set of Waharaka desanas (they were not online yet).

2. SarathW said,
So in your opinion "Vinnanam anidassanam" is Nibbana?
No. It is the other way around. I guess you did not read my post carefully. Please read the recommended posts carefully before asking further questions:
https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/
Bullet #11 explains "Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ.."
It could be written as “Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ, sabbato pabhaṃ.." to highlight the
three characteristics of vinnana stated there: “It cannot be seen, it is infinite, and it leads to the rebirth process for all”.

3.That post discusses how a pure (pabhassara) citta gets contaminated in a billionth of a second in nine stages. It is such a fast process that billions of such processes occur in the blink of an eye. This is why the Buddha said that there is nothing in this world faster than a citta (that word is used loosely to denote “a taught”, which really should be “vinnanakkhandha” as explained; this is why one needs to get the meaning of a word in the context of where it appears). Mechanically translating suttas word-by-word can lead to confusion:
https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpreta ... roduction/

There is a lot of material condensed in that post on pabhassara citta. If one reads the other posts referenced there, one could get a really good understanding of how Nibbana is attained via getting rid of asava and anusaya.

Anyway, these vinnana lead to kamma bhava and uppatti bhava, and those uppatti bhava lead to rebirths, while kamma bhava lead to kamma vipaka during a lifetime. All these are explained in various posts at the Pure Dhamma site. Use the "Search" button to locate relevant posts.
With metta, Lal
SarathW
Posts: 21257
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW »

So radiant consciousness is not Vinnana (“It cannot be seen, it is infinite, and it leads to the rebirth process for all”).?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
Posts: 21257
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW »

You need to ask him that question. But I would think so, because this is compatible with what Waharaka Thero taught. I met him only briefly a couple of times in 2014/2015 when he was a not yet a bhikkhu. He gave me a set of Waharaka desanas (they were not online yet).
Please see the following video. (sinhalese language) According to him we all experience radiant consciousness in a day to day basis in a Puthujana.


https://youtu.be/Hwk-aKhm0f4?t=2164
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Lal
Posts: 949
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by Lal »

SarathW said,
Please see the following video. (sinhalese language) According to him we all experience radiant consciousness in a day to day basis in a Puthujana.
It is a subtle point. In my post, I analyzed the situation where no abhisankhara was done, it is just a sankhara (I specifically mentioned that the case I analyzed involved only the 7 universal cetasika). In #1, I stated,
 “And during that brief time, many other cetasika (good or bad) can be incorporated into a citta. But let us consider the simpler case where no other cetasika are incorporated.
 Even such a simple citta is still contaminated or defiled at the end of that brief time. This contamination is manifested in vedana and sanna cetasika.

That is a avyakrutha (more correctly abyakatha) sankhara, that would not lead to rebirth or even bad kamma. But, even then one’s sanna and vedana are contaminated to some extent. At 36.08 mins in that video he mentions the “nama” stage. He may not have thought much about it, but even that stage is contaminated to some extent, and therefore no putthujana will ever generate a complete pabhssara citta (except at the birth moment of the citta; by the end of the citta it is contaminated). But his main point is correct, in that it does not lead to a kamma patha or an abhisankhara in the specific case he described.
I may try to send him an email and with my post on the pabhassara citta. I have not corresponded with him since 2015.

SarathW said,
Did Buddha teach not-self or non-self at all?
He said it is neither. In very simple terms, people do exist in the world, so one cannot say there is “no self”. But no person remains the same, so one cannot say there is “self”.

In the Brahmajala sutta, the Buddha explained that both views of “self” and ‘no self” are wrong and they are included in the 62 types of mica ditthi.
Then you have answers to all other questions.

With metta, Lal
Post Reply