the great vegetarian debate

[SarathW]

What about keeping pets in a home aquarium?

Keeping pet is ok as far as you do not involve with compassionate killing.

[No_Mind]

Pointing at a live crab in a restaurant to be cooked is a no no.

No ..

One can eat fish .. so I can point at a crab or else how do I buy a crab from market (not that I eat crab but I eat tilapia fillets in curry .. same thing .. I order it to be killed like the crab).

[santa100]

not that I eat crab but I eat tilapia fillets in curry .. same thing .. I order it to be killed like the crab

One can eat meat, but the highlighted part is where the Buddha advised us to try to avoid. Not sure if you observe the Five Precepts, for if you do, then you've broken the 1st Precept:

“Venerable sir, I have heard this: ‘They slaughter living beings for the recluse Gotama; the recluse Gotama knowingly eats meat prepared for him from animals killed for his sake.’ Venerable sir, do those who speak thus say what has been said by the Blessed One, and not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact? Do they explain in accordance with the Dhamma in such a way that nothing which provides a ground for censure can be legitimately deduced from their assertions?” [369]

4. “Jīvaka, those who speak thus do not say what has been said by me, but misrepresent me with what is untrue and contrary to fact.

5. “Jīvaka, I say that there are three instances in which meat should not be eaten: when it is seen, heard, or suspected [that the living being has been slaughtered for oneself]. I say that meat should not be eaten in these three instances. I say that there are three instances in which meat may be eaten: when it is not seen, not heard, and not suspected [that the living being has been slaughtered for oneself]. I say that meat may be eaten in these three instances.

[No_Mind]

not that I eat crab but I eat tilapia fillets in curry .. same thing .. I order it to be killed like the crab

One can eat meat, but the highlighted part is where the Buddha advised us to try to avoid. Not sure if you observe the Five Precepts, for if you do, then you've broken the 1st Precept:

Confused

Is there any other way of killing it than ordering it be killed? We have choice of frozen and fresh and nearly everyone eats fresh (frozen meat tastes yuck).

Chicken or tilapia or crab .. the vendor will ask which one do you want to be killed, skinned and cut.

Oh you mean this looks less bad Kamma

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpU56J0PzQ0

than this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJSOzSTVzAc

[santa100]

Oh you mean this looks less bad Kamma

I haven't attained awakening and so won't be able to tell you the exact kamma. One thing I do know is that based on MN 55, the fact that you have the volition about killing a living being and then verbally order the butcher to take its life right in front of your eyes certainly make it a much graver kamma than say buying pre-packaged or frozen meat. Even though we have not developed the DhammaEye, but we should be able to see the different "grades" of negative kamma just by watching what's going on around us: there're people being roasted or impaled alive and there're people getting minor scratches on their skin. So everything happen for a reason and you have all the freedom to make your own choice.

[SarathW]

Last week I was in a friends place.
There was thunder and lightning the pet dog got so scared and shivering for about three hours.
This gave a glimpse of the fear of death experienced by an animal.
I though that I will never eat meat again.
Unfortunately it did not work.

[No_Mind]

Oh you mean this looks less bad Kamma

I haven't attained awakening and so won't be able to tell you the exact kamma. One thing I do know is that based on MN 55, the fact that you have the volition about killing a living being and then verbally order the butcher to take its life right in front of your eyes certainly make it a much graver kamma than say buying pre-packaged or frozen meat.

Politically correct, optics driven Dhamma leaves me perplexed. It seems a mighty large serving of aversion from where I am standing.

But .. to avoid arguments .. I will not pursue it. I have no interest in antiseptic Dhamma.

I have to clarify why I asked .. lately I have become a fan of River Monsters on Animal Planet. Yesterday I thought .. hold on .. is Jeremy (the host) guilty of Wrong Livelihood .. hence my OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyIOCrTcRUI

[santa100]

Politically correct, optics driven Dhamma leaves me perplexed. It seems a mighty large serving of aversion from where I am standing.

It's not in my interest to do any of those things you mentioned above. I simply provided the sutta info. and folks are free to do whatever they see fit. I have done my part and will stop here.

[No_Mind]

Politically correct, optics driven Dhamma leaves me perplexed. It seems a mighty large serving of aversion from where I am standing.

It's not in my interest to do any of those things you mentioned above. I simply provided the sutta info. and folks are free to do whatever they see fit. I have done my part and will stop here.

The sutta said frozen meat contributes to better Kamma?

[form]

not that I eat crab but I eat tilapia fillets in curry .. same thing .. I order it to be killed like the crab

One can eat meat, but the highlighted part is where the Buddha advised us to try to avoid. Not sure if you observe the Five Precepts, for if you do, then you've broken the 1st Precept:

Confused

Is there any other way of killing it than ordering it be killed? We have choice of frozen and fresh and nearly everyone eats fresh (frozen meat tastes yuck).

Chicken or tilapia or crab .. the vendor will ask which one do you want to be killed, skinned and cut.

Oh you mean this looks less bad Kamma

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpU56J0PzQ0

than this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJSOzSTVzAc

I think the rule is buy meat that is already ready. Don't point at a live animal and ordered it to be killed. When keeping aquarium fishes, feed dried food and not live food. That is what I do.

[Polar Bear]

Yes,

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion, a large number of boys on the road between Sāvatthī & Jeta's Grove were catching fish. Then early in the morning the Blessed One adjusted his under robe and — carrying his bowl & robes — went into Sāvatthī for alms. He saw the large number of boys on the road between Sāvatthī & Jeta's Grove catching little fish. Seeing them, he went up to them and, on arrival, said to them, "Boys, do you fear pain? Do you dislike pain?"

"Yes, lord, we fear pain. We dislike pain."

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:


If you fear pain,
if you dislike pain,
don't anywhere do an evil deed
in open or in secret.
If you're doing or will do
an evil deed,
you won't escape pain
catching up
as you run away.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Fish Have Feelings, Too: The Inner Lives Of Our 'Underwater Cousins'

Fish Could Be Conscious

Fish Are Sentient and Emotional Beings and Clearly Feel Pain: Fish Deserve Better Treatment Based on Data on Their Emotional Lives

We should neither kill nor harm fish, or even insects, even if you aren't buddhist or following any dharmic religion:

What insects can tell us about the origins of consciousness

And yes, you should do your personal best to go vegan, even if you don't rack up negative kamma for purchasing previously slaughtered animals at the market.

[No_Mind]

And yes, you should do your personal best to go vegan, even if you don't rack up negative kamma for purchasing previously slaughtered animals at the market.

No. Not that I eat lot of meat .. maybe 500 grams a month. But I will not ever be a confirmed vegetarian. I do not like absolute choices/extremes.

Neither do I side with those who will not eat a meal if there is no meat .. nor side with those who will not eat if there is meat. I do like eating eggs, ice creams, cakes .. so I guess being vegan is out of question.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Is fishing (as a pastime) breaking the First Precept?

If the fish is not killed, but caught and thrown back, then no, it does not break the first precept. Nevertheless it is unwholesome kamma. The results are different to killing.

7. "Here, student, some woman or man is one who harms beings with his hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If instead he comes to the human state, he is sickly wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to sickness, that is to say, to be one who harms beings with one's hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives.

Killing living beings has the following results:

5. "Here, student, some woman or man is a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, he comes to the human state, he is short-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to short life, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings.

I have to clarify why I asked .. lately I have become a fan of River Monsters on Animal Planet. Yesterday I thought .. hold on .. is Jeremy (the host) guilty of Wrong Livelihood .. hence my OP.

Yes. Earning a living by killing animals is wrong-livelihood.

[ganegaar]

Alternatively we may look at a precept not as a rule, but rather as an "action that have consequences", in that "bad consequences".
I do not know how kamma would work in future, but yet about the situation here and now, just when breaking a precept, even before braking it (when mind is inclining into breaking), while breaking it and after doing so, the mind is not at ease, the mind is not cool, this calm happy feeling is not there at all, instead what is there is a heated mind, a suffering mind!
It is a rather interesting and confusing why I myself would break precepts time to time, fully knowing the consequences here and now!, I suppose it is to do with me being not having strong mindfulness and strong will power to resist the temptation to break yet, I suppose it is the Moha factor in play that shields the mind to do the opposite.
Following is from a Joseph Goldstien talk (not exact words he used, but just the idea), which really apply to me as well: I am about to break a precept, I know it has no benefit to me, I know I will suffer, so the choice is clear, "do I want to be happy" or "do I want to suffer", surprisingly and quite paradoxically, I do choose to suffer time to time!.

On the reverse side, keeping precepts do have a certain joy in it, a joy that is hard to describe, but all my good friends who are so diligent in keeping precepts would sure have felt that and would sure agree with me.

Even the 1st precept if we tend to see it "as a rule", "as a commandment", the mind have a tendency to rebel against the command, mind have a tendency to go against it, isn't it?
And killing vs eating, to kill the mind is having a "Dvesha citta" - a mind based in hatred, while in eating (unmindfully) the mind is a "Lobha citta" - a mind based in "Greed". Both are bad, but pointing at a crab to be killed to be eaten, you will get both bad stuff!. My unenlightened mind do have a more potent issue than Dvesha (hatred) and Lobha (greed), that is the Moha (dilution). This moha paints a nice picture and hides the actual suffering, and presents suffering as pleasure, suffering as happiness and then presents the real pleasure as suffering, real happiness as suffering!.
The Moha have this strange ability to justify our unjustifiable actions, with quite convincingly absurd arguments!, but over and over fully knowing we fall into the same trap! what a mess )

[SarathW]

Ganegarr