Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

[SarathW]

Another way to measure Sotapanna:

The Measure of Achievement


By accomplishment and perfection in the five faculties one is an arahant. If the faculties are weaker, one is a non-returner; if they are still weaker, one is a once-returner, or a stream-winner, or a Dhamma-devotee (dhammanusarin), or a faith-devotee (saddhanusarin).

Thus, monks, through the difference of faculties, there is difference of result; and the difference of results makes for the difference of individuals.

— Sutta 13; translated by Nyanaponika Mahathera


Thus, monks, he who practices the five faculties to their perfection, wins to perfection (of arahantship). He who practices them partially, wins a partial result. Not barren (of results), I say, are the five faculties.

— Sutta 14; translated by Nyanaponika Mahathera


But he who is entirely, in any degree and respect, without these five faculties, stands outside, in the class of ordinary men (puthujjana).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el065.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SarathW]

The matter raised in OP is fully discussed in the following book.

Points of controversy
Page 76
4. Of Purification Piecemeal

http://lirs.ru/do/Points_of_Controversy_(Kathavatthu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;),Aung,Davids,1915.pdf

[SarathW]

The matter raised in OP is fully discussed in the following book.

Points of controversy
Page 76
4. Of Purification Piecemeal

http://lirs.ru/do/Points_of_Controversy_(Kathavatthu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;),Aung,Davids,1915.pdf

Can someone give me the Sutta Central reference to this?
Thanks

[SarathW]

It appears that first three fetters are not fully eliminated by a Sotapanna.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/sh ... ent/4545/5

[form]

This should be a fact as it is clearly presented in the sutta and there is not contradicting information else where. Compared to many dhamma topics where there are directly conflicting information in different suttas. The only arguments will be how the 3 fetters involved should be defined. And, that I feel is what caused different views.

[rajitha7]

This should be a fact as it is clearly presented in the sutta and there is not contradicting information else where. Compared to many dhamma topics where there are directly conflicting information in different suttas. The only arguments will be how the 3 fetters involved should be defined. And, that I feel is what caused different views.

There are 3 types of stream-enterers. A full description is given here.

https://meditationexplorer.files.wordpr ... sion-2.pdf

[form]

This should be a fact as it is clearly presented in the sutta and there is not contradicting information else where. Compared to many dhamma topics where there are directly conflicting information in different suttas. The only arguments will be how the 3 fetters involved should be defined. And, that I feel is what caused different views.

There are 3 types of stream-enterers. A full description is given here.

https://meditationexplorer.files.wordpr ... sion-2.pdf

Unable to download it. Can you give me a summary of the three types?

[rajitha7]

This should be a fact as it is clearly presented in the sutta and there is not contradicting information else where. Compared to many dhamma topics where there are directly conflicting information in different suttas. The only arguments will be how the 3 fetters involved should be defined. And, that I feel is what caused different views.

There are 3 types of stream-enterers. A full description is given here.

https://meditationexplorer.files.wordpr ... sion-2.pdf

Unable to download it. Can you give me a summary of the three types?

Can you see this link?

http://www.youblisher.com/p/623524-Sota ... k-English/

[form]

Yes bro. Thank you.

Is it on chapter 11; page 30?

[rajitha7]

Yes bro. Thank you.

Is it on chapter 11; page 30?

Yes, but is all summarised here well. Did you read these pages?

https://puredhamma.net/seeking-nibbana/ ... f-nibbana/

[form]

Yes bro. Thank you.

Is it on chapter 11; page 30?

Yes, but is all summarised here well. Did you read these pages?

https://puredhamma.net/seeking-nibbana/ ... f-nibbana/

I read thru this part once, I still dun quite get it. I saw the ref seems to be from AN book 1-3. Can u tell me what r the 3 different types briefly?

[rajitha7]

Well, a man from a Catholic background develops a strong faith in God. The faith leads him to renounce worldly life and become a Catholic priest. He needs to have a strong reason, or a super-mundane reason in order to give up everything. He needs to have faith in God's existence before jumping on board.

The Buddhists also get on the path of renunciation. However, in place of a fetter believing in the word of God, the Buddhists have a fetter called sakkaya-ditti i.e. developing knowledge of the aggregates, the sense doors etc.

The Catholic man has faith in God. The Buddhist must develop vicikitsā or unwavering faith in Buddha, Dhamma, and Sanga.

The third fetter only exists with Buddhists - sīlabbata-parāmāsa "Attachment to rites and rituals". I suspect this is a carry-over from the time when Vedic rituals were prominent. This is no longer the case these days.

So a sottapanna is someone who has removed sakkaya-ditti, vicikitsā and sīlabbata-parāmāsa. Being in the path involves having the correct view and strong faith this view is correct.

Refer to this Sutta.
SN 55.5 Sāriputta 2
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.5

[form]

Well, a man from a Catholic background develops a strong faith in God. The faith leads him to renounce worldly life and become a Catholic priest. He needs to have a strong reason, or a super-mundane reason in order to give up everything. He needs to have faith in God's existence before jumping on board.

The Buddhists also get on the path of renunciation. However, in place of a fetter believing in the word of God, the Buddhists have a fetter called sakkaya-ditti i.e. developing knowledge of the aggregates, the sense doors etc.

The Catholic man has faith in God. The Buddhist must develop vicikitsā or unwavering faith in Buddha, Dhamma, and Sanga.

The third fetter only exists with Buddhists - sīlabbata-parāmāsa "Attachment to rites and rituals". I suspect this is a carry-over from the time when Vedic rituals were prominent. This is no longer the case these days.

So a sottapanna is someone who has removed sakkaya-ditti, vicikitsā and sīlabbata-parāmāsa. Being in the path involves having the correct view and strong faith this view is correct.

Refer to this Sutta.
SN 55.5 Sāriputta 2
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.5

I have read both the Chinese part on the link and the book version by bhikkhu bodhi. I also skimmed thru the whole chapter on stream enterer. I dun see how these differs from a stream enterer would have removed identity view, clinging to rules and rituals and doubt.

[SarathW]

Well, a man from a Catholic background develops a strong faith in God. The faith leads him to renounce worldly life and become a Catholic priest. He needs to have a strong reason, or a super-mundane reason in order to give up everything. He needs to have faith in God's existence before jumping on board.

The Buddhists also get on the path of renunciation. However, in place of a fetter believing in the word of God, the Buddhists have a fetter called sakkaya-ditti i.e. developing knowledge of the aggregates, the sense doors etc.

The Catholic man has faith in God. The Buddhist must develop vicikitsā or unwavering faith in Buddha, Dhamma, and Sanga.

The third fetter only exists with Buddhists - sīlabbata-parāmāsa "Attachment to rites and rituals". I suspect this is a carry-over from the time when Vedic rituals were prominent. This is no longer the case these days.

So a sottapanna is someone who has removed sakkaya-ditti, vicikitsā and sīlabbata-parāmāsa. Being in the path involves having the correct view and strong faith this view is correct.

Refer to this Sutta.
SN 55.5 Sāriputta 2
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.5

Hi Rajitha
It appears you got something drastically wrong with above post with the following statements.

-"the Buddhists have a fetter called sakkaya-ditti " Are you saying that non-Buddhist do not have sakkya-ditti
- "The Catholic man has faith in God" Are you saying that catholic man has eliminated this fetter?
- "The third fetter only exists with Buddhists - sīlabbata-parāmāsa "Attachment to rites and rituals". Are you saying that catholic man has eliminated this fetter?

In nut shell Catholic man is a Sotapanna?

[rajitha7]

Hello Form,

It's probably something in the realm of feeling/perception than cognition. So instead of making it as academic exercise asking for scientific proof etc, try to have faith it's true. So to give you an example.

The Catholic Man -> is touched by God -> joins the Christian path
The Buddhist -> understands the 4 Noble truths -> joins the 8-fold path

So I will give you an example I heard right here in this forum. I was discussing something with Sarath. He said,

I still remember the day I read about Anatta.
I felt like jumping out of my bed and wanted to tell that to everybody.
Then I started writing about it.

I cannot read his mind. Although Sarath seems to have taken over by the profoundness of the Noble Truths.

Anicca - that nothing in this world can bring a permanent happiness in the long run.
Dukkha - despite our struggles, we will be subjected to much more suffering than pleasures in the long run.
Anatta - therefore, we are truly helpless in this struggle to attain something that is just an illusion.

Everything anecdotal suggests he is firmly on the path, although only a Buddha or Sarath can say for certain.

Now, he probably made the transition because he associated excellent Dhamma folks prior. He would have also known about the doctrine to some extent. These set a cordial environment to make the transition.

So, as you can see he did not need scientific proof of rebirth to understand the 4-noble-truths. That is why I said it's something in the realm of feeling/perception than cognition.

Many brain surgeries are performed every day. Although even the experts do not have the full understanding how the brain works. So have faith in that way.

He would have already had Sakkaya-ditti (knowledge of how the self-has formed) and vicikitsā a profound faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sanga.

So if you feel you are not on the path yet, learn the Dhamma, associate Kalyanamittas (Dhamma friends) and be in a conducive environment that would take you there.

I have read both the Chinese part on the link and the book version by bhikkhu bodhi. I also skimmed thru the whole chapter on stream enterer. I dun see how these differs from a stream-enterer would have removed identity view, clinging to rules and rituals and doubt.

This is very important to understand. A stream enterer knows how self is formed i.e. the aggregates. He is yet to remove that idea from his mind. This happens only at the end. Please read here.