Wat Dhammakaya

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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dhammafriend
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by dhammafriend » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:19 am

...I have no problem with ppl who dont like our methods, a lot of ppl dont and i understand why they dont. That doesnt justify the Nazi arms dealer BS ive seen throughout most of the thread. and yes karma is real and effects good ppl also, the buddha himself suffered from bad karma on several occasions. But using that logic, dhammakaya, being the richest temple in thailand, also has the most merit of any temple (im not claiming this, im just pointing out the parallel logic).

If the #truebuddhists, especially the monks here who seem obsessed with destroying dhammakaya want some alms or to explain WPD's wealth you should consider these suttas. u dont exactly need to invest in secret weapons companies nobody has ever heard of to get money...
I think what we've seen on this thread has been a steady seeding of misinformation, rumor and hyperbole. The level of commitment to this divisiveness has also been astounding. And I think, TRobinson465, we know who the main culprits are, and it's a real shame.

But this has been purposeful in my estimation. You see, if you can dehumanize WPD followers and monks, no one will shed a tear when they are brutalized and worse. Why? because: " they're not #TrueBuddhists", "they're brainwashed Nazis", "they're building an army", "they're building a Deathstar". Honestly, reading this thread feels like I'm in a Terry Gilliam movie.

And of course it's all #True because the Bangkok Post says so. :rofl: It's so #True, we don't even need evidence! :rolleye: In fact asking for evidence is proof you're a cohort of WPD and need to be spirited off to the nearest prison camp! I mean, who needs critical thinking abilities, when you have #TrueBuddhism right? :woohoo: I'm sorry but, who, is actually brainwashed here?
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Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:52 am

Heres a recent source from an Australian Professor who has studied Dhammakaya extensively.

Dr James L Taylor is Adjunct Associate Professor, Anthropology & Development Studies, University of Adelaide. He has written extensively on Thammakai (Dhammakaya) since the late 1980s and 1990s including in his book Buddhism and Postmodern Imaginings in Thailand.

He provides some very interesting insight and background information into the current situation. I was familiar with a lot of the points he made before regarding Thai Buddhism in general but he really mended it together well. For those who dont know WPD is part of Mahanikaya, the larger of the 2 branches of Thai Buddhism. Despite the other branch, Dhammayut, being like 6% of Thailand they have like half of all royal titles and positions in Thailand. Dhammayut is by far the favored branch by the Thai elite class, the anti-democracy class the Dictator caters too.

For info on that whole branch thing check this out.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asi ... 11816.html

I heard some rumors that one reason this case is happening is so the Dictator and his thugs can steal our "famous" wealth. It sounds silly but consider this. Its widely known Thailand has faced some bad economic times recently thanks to the Dictator not having any idea what hes doing, while at the same time the Dictator has given himself and his Military Mafia goons tons of bonuses and perks since overthrowing democracy. So its not unreasonable the reason they want the temple is to fill the nations coffers the Elitist Generals have been stealing, especially since the Junta has publicly stated they want to replace the temple leadership and "reform" it as they see fit.

I know this argument sounds silly on surface, but this is simplified, check out the full piece from Professor Taylor, he makes a very in depth analysis of the situation for this argument and touches a lot on the background of Thailand in general. He also points out numerous points about the case that ive been pointing out on the thread for quite some time that the anti-dhammakaya ppl ignored.

Check out Professor James L Taylor's piece here. its very insightful for and gives great understanding into Thailand's Buddhism politics.

http://www.newmandala.org/perplexing-ca ... hammakaya/
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:25 am

Im not gonna watching this thread for a bit. I will drop in occasionally to provide some sources on current events as they come in tho.

Before i leave i do wanna share my thoughts on the piece from Professor Taylor. Professor Taylor's piece is great for providing background info into some of the politics of Thai Buddhism. While people like to think Buddhism is all about practice and suttas it isnt. Like anything, politics gets involved and people in power meddle with faith. this has happened not just with the current Dictator but also in the past. Whats great about Taylor's piece is it really provides a good summary the politics that has pervaded Thai Buddhism. If any1 is interested, another scholar, Duncan McCargo, has also written about this stuff, its quite fascinating.

I do however disagree with Dr. Taylors conclusion. He covers many reasons why the Junta is putting so much resources into trying to destroy Dhammakaya and I agree with his explanations, it matches what ive researched regarding Politics and Buddhism in Thailand. What i disagree with is the money intention. The temple is famous for being wealthy so im sure thats a reason, the dictator even said he wanted to "inspect" our solid gold statues for himself. But in my opinion and the based on the evidence ive seen the primary reason seems to be power and crushing dissent. Something the Junta has been doing quite openly since the coup.

Obviously this is only speculation, I do agree with the many points Dr. Taylor brings up but he says its primarily to take the temples wealth. From what ive seen, i would say its primarily for crushing dissent and controlling the country in a more iron grip. Just my own thoughts.

Interestingly enuff Dr. Taylor claims its a dash for cash by the Junta but provides a wide range of reasons for the assault lol. So I guess the only real difference in opinion here is what we speculate the "main" reason is.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

form
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by form » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:59 am

Many churches also accumulated a lot of wealth but dun seem to get into such trouble. I wonder why?

I am not going to speculate about the abbot or the temple as I think they teaches good from my short experience with them. That is just my opinion.

Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Turmeric » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:49 am

It's amazing how people support a prime minister that literally puts people in prison for disagreeing with him, over a sick old monk that tells his followers to love the people that hate them.
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jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:39 am

Turmeric wrote:Making random accusations without evidence is slander, which is wrong speech.
I fully agree.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:23 am

Turmeric wrote:
ManEagle wrote:I do wish they'd hurry up and get this Dhammajayo business sorted out soon. Just recently my wife has taken to chanting whenever she can. And she's got hold of some annoying YT video from Dhammakaya with chanting at twice the normal speed. Sounds like Pinkie & Perky chanting. It's driving me bloody mad! Apparently it's necessary to get as many chanting rounds in per hour because this is going to help their beloved abbot! (Or is it ex-abbot?). My mind boggles at some of the utter tosh they're being fed by the temple and its disciples.
Your wife is doing a good thing and you should try to avoid hurting her by making her lose faith. If you love her then you should encourage her to meditate more, go to the temple more, and chant more.

Anyways. For everyone here. Here is a cool preaching from Phramongkulthepmuni the founder of the Dhammakaya lineage

We are not stupid people who cannot tell the difference between what's right and what's wrong!
Ahem... By quoting this, you seem to imply ManEagle is too stupid to tell the difference.

Look, I don't want to be your enemy. I think you're a nice person. Let's try to discuss this without being disagreeable.

Consider a scenario where ManEagle's wife is doing all the same: going often to Wat Dk, donating lots of money, chanting often, then beginning to chant twice the speed believing that would help the abbot, etc. All the same, except the 'spaceship' stupa has a big cross on top, looking suspiciously Christian, and people worship it of course, and the abbot is wears a similar big cross. Plus, the name of the place is ChristKaya. In other words, it seems more like a strange Christian cult; but all else the same: The abbot preaches the same idea of Nirvana, the same idea of heaven, the same idea of donating as much as possible so that one can be super-rich the next life; the temple ground has a credit union to borrow money from to donate to the temple; the monks march on red carpet through the city carrying big umbrellas they don't use; you can even buy from the temple special 'golden' hammers to knock on heaven's door if it's closed, etc.

Would you still encourage people to go?

Just take time to think about it.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:27 am

jameswang wrote:
TRobinson465 wrote:Whether or not Somdet Chuang is the most qualified candidate is a matter of debate. Honestly i dont think a system of strict seniority will guarantee the best. That still doesnt change the fact that certain ppl on this thread tried to pretend his nomination was a conspiracy from dhammakaya to take over the world.
Who are those "certain ppl"? Since you say it with such certainty, I'm sure you can quote their posts showing that they "tried to pretend (Somdet Chuang's) nomination was a conspiracy from dhammakaya to take over the world."
Dear TRobinson465, I've notice this in your posts repeatedly: You accuse people here of things they didn't do, and sometimes even go on to criticize the strawman.
Last edited by jameswang on Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:33 am

exonesion wrote:If an influential, well-respected monk in the forest lineage has been targeted by the Thai Junta. He may be unjustly forced to disrobe. And I believe his disciples will do the same to protect him.
Firstly, there wouldn't be a reason for that.

If this monk in the forest lineage were asked to go to the police station, he would most likely cooperate. Then there's no need for the disciples to do as Dk members are doing. If any of his disciples turn violent, he would discourage that. He wouldn't hide himself.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:45 am

Turmeric wrote:"the ability to remember past lives,
to know where living beings are reborn after death,
and to cleanse the heart of the effluents (àsava) of
defilement: These three forms of intuition — termed
nana-cakku, the eye of the mind — can arise for
people who train themselves in the area of the heart
and mind. " - Ajahn Lee
Good quote. And Aj Lee and all other good monks I know follow the monastic rule of not making claims of such abilities.

slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:06 am

Lol I ordained several times as a novice when lp same was abbot and chat chai was the vice abbot. This trobinson sounds so arrogant and sure of himself. I chose not to name myself because they all know me there I'm not going to verify who I am, but if you wanted me to name drop I can. :lol: so please don't tell me I don't know the branch that I used to go too. You don't know me and I don't know you. But you sir sound condescending as hell, and sorry I'm being honest but I don't wanna break the 4th precept.

TRobinson465
Posts: 504
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:14 am

jameswang wrote:
Turmeric wrote:
ManEagle wrote:I do wish they'd hurry up and get this Dhammajayo business sorted out soon. Just recently my wife has taken to chanting whenever she can. And she's got hold of some annoying YT video from Dhammakaya with chanting at twice the normal speed. Sounds like Pinkie & Perky chanting. It's driving me bloody mad! Apparently it's necessary to get as many chanting rounds in per hour because this is going to help their beloved abbot! (Or is it ex-abbot?). My mind boggles at some of the utter tosh they're being fed by the temple and its disciples.
Your wife is doing a good thing and you should try to avoid hurting her by making her lose faith. If you love her then you should encourage her to meditate more, go to the temple more, and chant more.

Anyways. For everyone here. Here is a cool preaching from Phramongkulthepmuni the founder of the Dhammakaya lineage

We are not stupid people who cannot tell the difference between what's right and what's wrong!
Ahem... By quoting this, you seem to imply ManEagle is too stupid to tell the difference.

Look, I don't want to be your enemy. I think you're a nice person. Let's try to discuss this without being disagreeable.

Consider a scenario where ManEagle's wife is doing all the same: going often to Wat Dk, donating lots of money, chanting often, then beginning to chant twice the speed believing that would help the abbot, etc. All the same, except the 'spaceship' stupa has a big cross on top, looking suspiciously Christian, and people worship it of course, and the abbot is wears a similar big cross. Plus, the name of the place is ChristKaya. In other words, it seems more like a strange Christian cult; but all else the same: The abbot preaches the same idea of Nirvana, the same idea of heaven, the same idea of donating as much as possible so that one can be super-rich the next life; the temple ground has a credit union to borrow money from to donate to the temple; the monks march on red carpet through the city carrying big umbrellas they don't use; you can even buy from the temple special 'golden' hammers to knock on heaven's door if it's closed, etc.

Would you still encourage people to go?

Just take time to think about it.

Someone brought this up to me so i decided to come back and reply to this real quick.

First off. none of this justifies the dictator harassing us. You seem to have stopped trying to accuse us of breaking 300 random crimes. And i doubt a forest monk would willingly turn himself in knowing the dictator was going to disrobe him and appoint his own pawn to run his temple (again, the junta told reuters they will do this).

Second. I think a huge problem with this thread is misinformation and ur claims are evidence of such. Ill try not to be disagreeable as well and i cant blame you for not knowing anyways.

1. Im not sure how a cross would make a difference but, the abbot teaches the same thing about Nirvana as the rest of the Dk tradition. True self. It is the minority, but still common among other theravada traditions.

2. Again, the central teaching of Dk is meditation, not giving. Even when giving they tell you to purify the mind b4. They do not encourage giving away all your money. It is the same as most other temples, the only difference is probably the scale and frequency of the fundraising.

3. The credit union is near the temple. not on, and only there because its a big place. there are schools and restaurants near the temple also. you think vatican city has no banks nearby? and it is not for loans to make donations. Despite the fact that ppl did that in the Buddhas time our abbot said not to take out loans to make donations. Maybe ppl do that, but i dont know of any and its taught there not to do that.

4.Those arent even umbrellas, i guess i cant blame you for not knowing that since u got ur info from online and on this forum rather than direct experience such as myself. so for the record. Those are tents, and they do use them. they sleep in them once they reach their destination.

5. The hammer is not to break down the gates of heaven. that was something somebody made up (probably on here). Its a commemorative gift for contributors to symbolize that they helped "build" the temple.

I appreciate you taking the time to read my corrections of your statements.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
Posts: 504
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Location: United States

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:18 am

jameswang wrote:
exonesion wrote:If an influential, well-respected monk in the forest lineage has been targeted by the Thai Junta. He may be unjustly forced to disrobe. And I believe his disciples will do the same to protect him.
Firstly, there wouldn't be a reason for that.

If this monk in the forest lineage were asked to go to the police station, he would most likely cooperate. Then there's no need for the disciples to do as Dk members are doing. If any of his disciples turn violent, he would discourage that. He wouldn't hide himself.
This is why i say "super always right forest tradition". Ppl here seem to think thier forest tradition is superior and flawless. Not to generalize the whole forest tradition but just saying a noticable amount of ppl on this thread come off this way. this is an example.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

jameswang
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:00 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:32 am

exonesion wrote:
slimdabuddhist wrote:On the topic of claiming to be able to recall people's past lives as being a Parajika offence,
4. Boasting that one has realised a high spiritual attainment, knowing that one is lying. For example, claiming to be enlightened, to be Maitreya Buddha, to have entered Jhana (deep meditation-ecstasy) or that one can read minds when one knows that one hasn't reached any of these states.
What if Luang Phor Dhammachayo has the ability to see people's past?
So what if he has? It's still an offense for making claims of psychic powers.

jameswang
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:00 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:07 am

pilgrim wrote:I'm not a fan of Dhammakaya but are they being treated fairly?
http://tahr-global.org/?p=32050
Do you see any unfair treatments?

Anyway, something strange here at that website.

Why does this supposed "The Thai Alliance for Human Rights" post on unrelated subjects, including one on a music video?
The Black Keys : Gold on the Ceilling
http://tahr-global.org/?p=14594
It even quotes the source: AFP Relax News

I've taken a snapshot, in case someone deletes it later. But perhaps I don't have to. There are other postings unrelated to human rights. Those related to human rights seems mostly copied from elsewhere.

Hmm...

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