Wat Dhammakaya

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by chownah » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:14 am

robertk wrote:The yellow shirts, elites, and pretty much anyone allied with the military goons regularly trot out Dr. Young for supportive interviews and what not.

This is a hilarious piece from a few years back
http://notthenation.com/2009/09/patroni ... -rhetoric/
I want to stress that I am making no judgement on dr. young whatsoever....and I am not taking any position whatsoever on any issue being raised in this discussion.
Please read the previous twice.
I read the article and find it to be almost worthless. It is just a misanthropic hatchet job containing virtually nothing but misrepresentation, accusation, implication, innuendo, and exageration.....oh, I forgot sarcasm.

The kind of people who take this trash as a valid statement of a postion on any issue are the kind of people who elected trump.
I'm not kidding.....belief in this kind of sh1t is to a GREAT degree what is wrong with american political discourse.
chownah

Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Turmeric » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:43 pm

It's coming out on Thai television now that the prime minister is not going to leave the temple after they find the abbot, but he is going to stay and seize the temple. A letter was leaked from the army where the prime minister had said he would not leave the temple until it was "reformed". So in other words, we are only going to the temple to arrest the Abbot. Ok we are in the temple, plot twist, now we are going to issue article 44 to search through the temples personal belongings. Ok, now we searched through the temples personal belongings and gained some control over the temple, another plot twist, time to "reform" it. Wake up Buddhists. How long will this man be allowed to be so dishonest to the public like this. Admit it Prayut. You want this temple that these people spent their money building, not your money.


This place is absolutely beautiful. An incredible monument of Buddhism. Now it is under siege.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKy7VF0ph8Q

Prime minister said he would revoke the use of article 44 only after he could manage the temple? One man dead from suicide? Government replacing the national director of Buddhism with a DSI Agent? What is going on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH3gRNXKcmI&t=143s

Thai television. "The question is...will all of this end if the abbot gives himself up? The answer is NO. All that has happened...the true intention...the main objective.... is not to only arrest the abbot. They're not just after one monk. They're after the ENTIRE TEMPLE."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJk2go0PxHY

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:44 am

chownah wrote:
robertk wrote:The yellow shirts, elites, and pretty much anyone allied with the military goons regularly trot out Dr. Young for supportive interviews and what not.

This is a hilarious piece from a few years back
http://notthenation.com/2009/09/patroni ... -rhetoric/
I want to stress that I am making no judgement on dr. young whatsoever....and I am not taking any position whatsoever on any issue being raised in this discussion.
Please read the previous twice.
I read the article and find it to be almost worthless. It is just a misanthropic hatchet job containing virtually nothing but misrepresentation, accusation, implication, innuendo, and exageration.....oh, I forgot sarcasm.

The kind of people who take this trash as a valid statement of a postion on any issue are the kind of people who elected trump.
I'm not kidding.....belief in this kind of sh1t is to a GREAT degree what is wrong with american political discourse.
chownah

Well if ur talking about the notthenation site. its meant to be satire...like ud have to be an idiot to think its real. hes making fun of the guy. Its a satirical response to an interview he made. found here

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/296 ... hen-young/

The satire piece was pointing out how stupid his points are in the interview, hes basically just a pawn of the anti-democracy elites in Thailand. A group that supports the Mafia military thugs and Dear Leader. His only qualification is being a farang. But the point i think robert was getting at is, if you read the relavent link from Dr. Young that Mike posted, hes not anymore reliable than Dr. Mano. Hes a tool of the entitled elites and the Military thugs.

Even without this fact, if you read the actual link Mike posted its hardly reliable. It doesnt even sound believable. I highly doubt we would invite some random unrelavent professor to our temple and tell him our super secret nazi doctrine that only super important ppl like Mano knew. And if we did i dont get why he waited 6 years to say anything. Throughout the piece he says "unnamed" person. likely because he made the whole meeting up. Mano claims we have secret businesses overseas but never names them because if he did some1 could research it and find we dont run them. This is the same concept. Hes probably never actually been to the temple let alone knew anybody by name so he had to say "unnamed" because if he makes up a name and theres no monk there by that name thats proof hes lying. which he clearly is.

The Elitist pawn BkkPost might as well as picked some random farang off the street and asked them to make up a story about us. thats basically what that piece was. At least Mano (a former monk) at least had some kind of credential, tho his own words are enuff to discredit him. Despite being appointed the Dictator's advisor in his crusade to destroy Dhammakaya Mano has consistently been wrong about everything throughout the case.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:19 am

I have to comment tho. I am happy to finally see that the thread is no longer a Dhammakaya hate thread. Its nice to not see so much hatred from #TrueBuddhists for once. I think the Dictator actually played a role in this reversal. Its looks like its pretty much been established that the 300 completely random charges against our abbot are totally bogus.

You can tell because the evangelicals who took over the thread before stopped posting. Hard to justify an incredibly obvious case of persecution. And the evidence for the Dictator persecuting us is pretty overwhelming. The Dictator's hired pawn Mano also made enuff slip ups (secret tunnel, weapon stockpile, new high tech device, etc.) throughout the persecution to provide sufficient evidence he wasnt reliable. So there goes the #TrueBuddhists beloved ONLY source they were using the past few years.

I also noticed several members jump to Dhammakaya's defense to help turn the tides. Interestingly enuff, before i was involved with the temple, Dhammakaya was attacked in the early 2000s by the Thai media also. Several members told me that because of the publicity from that time, they wanted to see if all the stuff in the tabloids was true so they came to the temple themselves. They liked how it was and stayed. So ironically the anti-Dhammakaya media actually gave Dhammakaya more members. Looks like the quote from Phramonkolthepmuni is true.
When they speak about us, they helped increase awareness of our temple. It was better than advertising in newspapers. Because what they said is what they have done. I did not hire anyone for publicity. When someone criticizes, there will always be someone who praises.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUOkKz2 ... e=youtu.be
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

DMN
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by DMN » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:27 am

Thanks to those that have replied to my query. First thing for me is to say is that if any temple even has the slightest association with an extremist then I'm walking away and I won't want to know. Extremism and Buddhism are two things that should not even need to be contemplated. I paraphrase Ajahn Brahm during one of his talks on Youtube, 'it's not Buddhism'. It is very hard to pin down the actual facts in the case of Dhammakaya temple and with all due respect, I only have Dhammakaya members and the odd news article in English to inform me with regards to the pro side of the argument.

The thing that is clear to me is the human rights violations by the Thai Government. I think that government forces have however been restrained so far and the situation could have been much worse. I also attend a Forest Sangha monastery and I would feel the same with regards to human rights violations if a forest temple was raided or any other Buddhist or non-Buddhist establishment for that matter.

My experience of Dhammakaya has been a very positive one and I regard one of the monks as a friend who even offered to spend a lot of time helping me through a personal problem lately. I am however very puzzled when it comes to Dhammakaya. On one hand, I experience an organisation with devoted people who all they seem to do is talk about peace and promote peace. In addition, I have learned a lot at the temple and I have grown personally and spiritually during my time there. On the other hand, there has always been the controversy surrounding the temple back in Thailand and whether the Abbot and others have committed offences or not. These two points are in total contrast which, event before the temple siege, made me feel uneasy. Just to note, if I am presented with any evidence that shows that senior monks have been corrupt or that they do entertain extremists then I'm off never to be seen again at the temple so I am not a blind follower and many people at my temple feel the same way. The point is that there is so much confusion it is like I have one foot in the door and one foot out at the moment just waiting for something definitive either way.

In contrast, the Forest Monastery couldn't be more different to Dhammakaya. There is a well-established sangha and I feel just as at home there as I do at Dhammakaya, but without the niggling problems in the background. I also learn a lot of Buddhism there and love the chanting. The Forest Sangha just gets on with it! I do value being able to attend both organisations as I get a rich variety of variety of experiences.

There is one thing that is niggling away at me. It is clear to me that Dhammakaya members are hiding the abbot and I question whether they are doing right or wrong? I also question if this siege and the hiding of the abbot could be the downfall of the temple?

I don't usually post on forums as everyone gets my raw thoughts and I am always getting myself into trouble especially when I write! Sorry Dhammakaya members but I want to know and I want to see whether I need to abandon Dhammakaya or not. This is very important to me.

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:24 am

Hey DMN, thanks for the post. :anjali:
DMN wrote: (1) It is clear to me that Dhammakaya members are hiding the abbot and I question whether they are doing right or wrong?
(2) I also question if this siege and the hiding of the abbot could be the downfall of the temple?
Hiding the abbot, right or wrong?
To address your first niggling concern, here are three facts already established:
1. A forced disrobe scheme
2. Extrajudicial use of article 44
3. Baseless and unproved accusation of money-laundering against the abbot

If an influential, well-respected monk in the forest lineage has been targeted by the Thai Junta. He may be unjustly forced to disrobe. And I believe his disciples will do the same to protect him.

Hiding of abbot = downfall of the temple?
I don't know the answer to this question. But I know that the junta's hard-handed approach to WPD and the media's one-sided, personal attacks on WPD has invited unsubstantiated attacks on WPD. And this has caused other people, even other Buddhists, to denigrate WPD using harsh words like "brainwashing", "cult", etc.
DMN wrote: Sorry Dhammakaya members but I want to know and I want to see whether I need to abandon Dhammakaya or not. This is very important to me.
You don't have to be sorry DMN. :smile:
Keeping a distance from the Dhammakaya temple or its lineage shouldn't be a problem.

What truly matters, however, is that we practice Buddhism and follow our Buddha's lineage by:

(1) Avoiding all evil
(2) Doing good, and
(3) Purifying our minds.

Being Buddhists, we should help each other as kalyannamittas, regardless of Buddhist traditions,by encouraging one another to further our practice in Buddhism.

May you and other readers be happy. :anjali:

Warmest regards
Exonesion
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

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gavesako
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by gavesako » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:05 pm

DMN wrote:Thanks to those that have replied to my query. First thing for me is to say is that if any temple even has the slightest association with an extremist then I'm walking away and I won't want to know. Extremism and Buddhism are two things that should not even need to be contemplated.

What we can see now happening in Thailand with the Dhammakaya case is the use of "Buddhism" as an idol to be worshipped and anyone who claims to be doing things "for Buddhism" should be able to get away with murder -- sometimes literally, as in the case of the Ma Ba Tha nationalist group in Burma:
After Burma’s home affairs minister dismissed suggestions that Buddhist nationalists had played a role in the killing of the ruling National League for Democracy’s legal adviser U Ko Ni, infamous ultranationalist monk U Wirathu thanked those suspected of involvement in the murder. ... The following day, U Wirathu, a leading Ma Ba Tha monk from Mandalay, posted on his Facebook to say that he thanked all of the suspects identified in the case, and expressed his sympathy for the families of the suspects. “At this time, I feel relief for the future of Buddhism in my country. If not, the destruction of Buddhism, like in Thailand, would have gained a foothold here in five years,” he wrote.
https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/u-wirath ... urder.html
“We are showing solidarity with the Buddhist monks of Dhammakaya and praying peace will come upon Dhammakaya and Phra Dhammachayo,” said Ma Ba Tha leader U Wirathu, who later claimed that 200 people attended the demonstration. ...
“I believe the incident is politically motivated as the former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his sister Yingluk were disciples of Phra Dhammachayo,” U Wirathu told The Irrawaddy after the event.
“I know Phra Dhammachayo and his Dhammakaya well, they are Buddhist monks with strict discipline and I believe he has no relation to the money laundering,” he added.
Dhammakaya Temple organized a mass donation in 2015 to strengthen religious ties between Burma and Thailand and awarded Buddhist nationalist group Ma Ba Tha an honorary award for safeguarding religion in 2016.
“The accusations of the government of Thailand are a great insult to the abbot who is enthusiastically working for the flourishing of Buddhism and nationalism which is vital for the country,” said U Wirathu.
“We condemn the government of Thailand for this ugly action against Buddhism and request the government of Thailand to leave Dhammakaya and let Phra Dhammachayo, who is innocent, live in peace again,” he added.
https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/u- ... emple.html
DMN wrote:The thing that is clear to me is the human rights violations by the Thai Government. I think that government forces have however been restrained so far and the situation could have been much worse. I also attend a Forest Sangha monastery and I would feel the same with regards to human rights violations if a forest temple was raided or any other Buddhist or non-Buddhist establishment for that matter.
That has in fact happened recently with the infamous Tiger Temple which is (or was) part of the Dhammayut forest tradition:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 32073.html
http://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/ ... er-temple/
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:52 am

DMN wrote: There is one thing that is niggling away at me. It is clear to me that Dhammakaya members are hiding the abbot and I question whether they are doing right or wrong? I also question if this siege and the hiding of the abbot could be the downfall of the temple?

I don't usually post on forums as everyone gets my raw thoughts and I am always getting myself into trouble especially when I write! Sorry Dhammakaya members but I want to know and I want to see whether I need to abandon Dhammakaya or not. This is very important to me.
Well they believe hes innocent and is being persecuted so i think thats the reason for protecting him. But really, a large amount of the ppl there are older ppl because they want to protect the temple. They spent much of thier lives building and contributing to the temple and they dont want the dictator to just take it.

As stated here. "We searched the entire temple, every building, every room, and didn't find the individual under arrest warrants."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/t ... 11943.html

DSI already searched the whole temple. But instead of looking for him elsewhere the Dictator ordered everyone to leave. The Junta isnt exactly known for being honest or noble, so followers were afraid they were trying to seize the temple. It would be the downfall of the temple if the followers didnt resist because as stated one of my previous posts, the Junta stated its intention is to remove the abbot (before a trial, so b4 even determining guilt) and replace him with thier own pawn so the dictator can "reform" the temple.

Also, think about it. if this wasnt political, why would the dictator put so much effort into trying to arrest someone for questioning in a victimless crime? (money laundering and 300 other random "regulatory violations"). Putting so much resources so they can get someone to hear charges isnt exactly logical if it was just for justice. if they had enuff evidence they should try him in absentia to see if hes actually guilty or not first. but they wont even do that. To the dictator he must be found (and therefore defrocked) first, and then determined whether guilty or not after. clearly an agenda there.

And yes. Wirathu does make a good point. Prime Ministers Thaksin and Yingluck were both Dhammakaya followers, and both were also political enemies of the Dictator and his allies. Just another reason for the Dictator to get rid of us.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:08 am

Lol I'm not even an evangelist, I just don't like how wpd runs their temple. Azusa dimc proves how corrupted and distorted wpd is. Nobody even wants to go there anymore because all the monks there including the current abbots just want lay people to donate to them and bring them good food. I don't agree with what the Thai govt is doing, but if you believe in karma then you should know why wpd is getting scrutinized. And just because I don't agree with wpd doesn't mean yall are perfect buddhists lol.

paultraf
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by paultraf » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:19 am

Hello,
DMN wrote: ...! Sorry Dhammakaya members but I want to know and I want to see whether I need to abandon Dhammakaya or not. This is very important to me.
I would like to suggest that you need to stay centred, keep purifying your mind at the centre, clear and bright. That's how one sees. Don't rely on hearsay. Spend more time in meditation, allowing answers to come from within as extremity comes from a mind that dwells externally.

Best wishes,

Paul.

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Jojola
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Jojola » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:26 am

exonesion wrote: One scriptural support is the use of a light kasina
I don't see harm in using a light Kasina to develop concentration under good intentions (I'm not going to touch, however, the practice of prescribing it, that's a whole other matter), but there is danger in calling the Visuddhimagga scripture when it is not.
Regards,

- :heart:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha’s Teaching." - Nanavira Thera (1920-1965) :candle:

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:05 pm

Jojola wrote: I don't see harm in using a light Kasina to develop concentration under good intentions (I'm not going to touch, however, the practice of prescribing it, that's a whole other matter), but there is danger in calling the Visuddhimagga scripture when it is not.
Yes, you're right.
The Visuddhimagga isn't part of the pali canon, but a highly-respected commentary by Venerable Buddhaghosa that has been used by many meditation masters and Buddhists.

On the topic of light kasinas and the Visuddhimagga, Wat Phra Dhammakayaram, one of the three Dhammakaya temples, has a publication called:
The study guide for right practice of the three trainings.
In this publication, they linked meditation on the light kasina with the attainment of the Dhamma sphere, as seen here:

Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
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“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:04 pm


TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:41 am

Idk what slim is talking about. im assuming he hasnt been there in a while. I know ppl from the azusa branch and have been there myself as well as several other branches in the US. plenty of ppl go there and from what ive seen the emphasis on meditation is very high. This good food thing sounds like hes just sticking to some story thinking no1 can verify it. Can you even name the current abbot of Azusa? I can. In fact 2 of my friends from california go there, both foriegners who converted to buddhism from another non-dhammakaya temple and they chose to go to the dhammakaya branch in azusa regularly because they put so much emphasis on meditation and direct experience. In fact the Azusa branch is a temple thats attended quite regularly, far more than other temples in the area. I went to a 9 temple visit with them and noticed this firsthand.

I have no problem with ppl who dont like our methods, a lot of ppl dont and i understand why they dont. That doesnt justify the Nazi arms dealer BS ive seen throughout most of the thread. and yes karma is real and effects good ppl also, the buddha himself suffered from bad karma on several occasions. But using that logic, dhammakaya, being the richest temple in thailand, also has the most merit of any temple (im not claiming this, im just pointing out the parallel logic).

If the #truebuddhists, especially the monks here who seem obsessed with destroying dhammakaya want some alms or to explain WPD's wealth you should consider these suttas. u dont exactly need to invest in secret weapons companies nobody has ever heard of to get money.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an5.31
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Also notice how the #TrueBuddhists here have completely given up on trying to say the abbot was somehow guilty of the 300 completely random charges.

Anyways. some recent news. The Dictator is more incompetent than i thought. Not only is he incapable of managing a country or the economy, hes incapable of managing a persecution.

A Dk follower died the other day of an asthma attack because emergency services were held up at the Junta's barricades (we're holding a merit dedication ceremony tomorrow). This would normally just be a tragedy that DSI could apologize for and try to amend in the future, but instead they tried to blame Dhammakaya. A DSI official tried spreading false news that the deceased follower actually died 5 hours before being found and that the temple called an ambulance after the fact to make DSI look bad. DSI had to run away from this claim however when the temple showed the news LINE messages that clearly proved that the temple's account of what happened (she was messaging for help about 2 hours b4 being found, and therefore could not have already been dead) was right.

Even the anti-democracy yellow shirt BKK Post had trouble trying to make DSI look justified after DSI got caught in the lie.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... nt_1817959
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1208133
http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crim ... -disciple/

Also the Dictator is so paranoidly antidhammakaya that a short piece on Dhammakaya by Al Jazeera was actually blocked from being aired on TV.
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https://twitter.com/wayne_hay/status/837536767020392448

If you want to see this so called treasonous threat to national security the Dictator had blocked, you can find it online here.

https://twitter.com/wayne_hay/status/837632467939037188


Also, a few more sources on recent events for those interested.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asi ... -stand-off

http://www.voanews.com/a/thai-authoriti ... 43269.html
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

ManEagle
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by ManEagle » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:40 am

Although Amnesty International's report doesn't have anything to do with what's going on at Dhammakaya it does make for interesting and somewhat depressing reading. I am guessing that most Thai citizens and foreigners alike may not be affected too much by what the Junta is doing but I for one would feel extremely uncomfortable living in a country where many freedoms are being restricted and where free speech can apparently get you locked up in prison for up to 15 years!

I cannot help but feel great sympathy for all those affected by this despotic pathetic ruler.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/as ... /thailand/

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