Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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SarathW
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Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:05 pm

It is a general understanding that a person should experience at least first Jhana to have a taste of Nibbana (Sotapanna).
However I think a person should experience the second Jhana to have the first experience of Nibbana.
In second Jhana you stop the Vitakka and Vicara.
I think stopping Vitakka and Vicar is the first taste of eliminating personality view.
The only reason why we have so much Vitakka and Vicara are due to attachment to personality view.
Your comments welcome.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

R1111
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by R1111 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:59 pm

SarathW wrote:It is a general understanding that a person should experience at least first Jhana to have a taste of Nibbana (Sotapanna).
What do you mean by first Jhana and a taste of nibbana? like Samatha Rupa Jhana to see the unmade? i dont think its a common understanding.

JohnK
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by JohnK » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:21 pm

SarathW,
Personally, I like the sound of your post.
My practice (and what I have been taught) has never been jhana-oriented (evidence: I am way more likely to read and post in the vipassana forum than the samatha forum).
Typically, my meditation has a "deliberate" quality to it, suggesting (as you mentioned) a "me" deliberately meditating, deliberately directing and deliberately sustaining attention (likely vitakka and vicara as I have read). There are less frequent moments where that deliberate quality drops away and there is a sense of extreme ordinariness (and relief and clarity). Until moments like this, I did not even really know by contrast the extent of "deliberate" in the other moments. I am just recently (based on reading) considering the possible connection of this to the jhana factors of vitakka and vicara. Interesting stuff.
And thank you for your contributions to DW.
:anjali:
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

pegembara
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by pegembara » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:27 am

When thoughts no longer arise there are still sounds, tactile sensations,.feelings which are conditioned phenomena. The taste of Nibbana is when there are no more arisings occurring however brief that moment is.That's the experience of cessation Everything has stopped. IMHO.

There's the conditioned and the unconditioned and the knowing of both.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:05 am

When thoughts no longer arise there are still sounds, tactile sensations,.feelings which are conditioned phenomena.
The way I understand Buddha experienced sound etc. but he still experienced the Nibbanic bliss.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by pegembara » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:51 am

Sound is a conditioned phenomena that arises when conditions are there and passes away. It isn't the unconditioned. Sabbe sankhara anicca.
"'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. 'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the third sextet.
What is nibbana?
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him...
"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:06 am

Thank you Pegembra
Thanks for the quotes. Very informative.
So you think a person can experience Nibbana (Arahant) only when he/she is in Nirodha Samapatti?
Then what about Arahatta phala Samadhi.
By the way I did not mean to say that a person is an Arahant when s/he is attain second Jhana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by pegembara » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:15 am

SarathW wrote:
When thoughts no longer arise there are still sounds, tactile sensations,.feelings which are conditioned phenomena.
The way I understand Buddha experienced sound etc. but he still experienced the Nibbanic bliss.
Here is a description of "nibbanic bliss" you mentioned.
Here, Ānanda, for the Tathāgata feelings are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; perceptions are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; thoughts are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear. Remember this too, Ānanda, as a wonderful and marvelous quality of the Tathāgata.

MN123
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

pegembara
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by pegembara » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:31 am

SarathW wrote:Thank you Pegembra
Thanks for the quotes. Very informative.
So you think a person can experience Nibbana (Arahant) only when he/she is in Nirodha Samapatti?
Then what about Arahatta phala Samadhi.
By the way I did not mean to say that a person is an Arahant when s/he is attain second Jhana.
The Buddha can still engage with worldly things without getting caught up in them.

So what do Buddhas know?

All that arises passes away (sabbe sankhara anicca)
There is nothing that can be owned (sabbe dhamma anatta)

"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death."

MN 1
Not forgetting that-

"All conditioned phenomena are dukkha" (sabbe sankhara dukkha)
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:44 am

The Buddha can still engage with worldly things without getting caught up in them.
Doesn't this mean that he can here sound etc.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by pegembara » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:32 am

SarathW wrote:
The Buddha can still engage with worldly things without getting caught up in them.
Doesn't this mean that he can here sound etc.
Yes of course. The sense experiences are still going on but their true nature(anicca, dukkha and anatta) are fully realised and hence there is no grasping. Sounds, sights, feelings etc are conditioned but there is also the unconditioned.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.
What is left when all sankharas are stilled? Sublime peace.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana.".
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:14 am

"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
I still trying to understand the meaning of above statement.
Does this mean we can have contact without feeling?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by pegembara » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:17 pm

From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
Contact and feeling are conjoined. Without contact, there is no feeling.
The cessation of contact and feeling is described as "pleasant" or peaceful as in "This is peace, this is exquisite ..... cessation; Nibbana.

That is the breaking of the cycle of dependent origination. The nirodha-nirodho sequence. When everything stops.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:32 pm

So can there be six sense bases (Salayatana) without contact?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

R1111
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by R1111 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:22 am

Just a correction here.
The red part isnt about Nibbana might want to edit
pegembara wrote: What is nibbana?
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
It is the
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt."
,
the highest state of mind, unmade. Thats why i initially asked what OP meant by Nibbanic because Samatha 1-8 jhanas are of aggregates therefore cathegorically diffrent from cessation of Aggregates.
As far as Nibbanic/Jhanic Bliss in terms of one being a jhanic state, i think the first Samatha Rupa Jhana will be a real taste of bliss out of turning away from sensuality but i wouldnt know for sure because i havent tried it.
Last edited by R1111 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

pegembara
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Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by pegembara » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:34 am

SarathW wrote:So can there be six sense bases (Salayatana) without contact?
From the 1st person perspective or single unit of experience, no. After all you don't know you can see if you have no object to see.

Can there be hearing (which requires the organ of hearing) without sounds? Who or what hears without sounds? No listener without sounds.
From the evolution viewpoint, you would likely lose the ability to hear if the world is a silent place.

Likewise, no seeing(or seer) without light. No thinker without thoughts.
They are dependently co-arisen in terms of direct experience.

Light - Eye base - Seeing - seer
Sounds - Ear base - Hearing - hearer
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

pegembara
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Second Jhana is the taste of first Nibbanic experience?

Post by pegembara » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:40 am

R1111 wrote:Just a correction here.
The red part isnt about Nibbana might want to edit
pegembara wrote: What is nibbana?
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
It is the
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt."
,
the highest state of mind, unmade. Thats why i initially asked what OP meant by Nibbanic because Samatha 1-8 jhanas are of aggregates therefore cathegorically diffrent from cessation of Aggregates.
As far as Nibbanic/Jhanic Bliss in terms of one being a jhanic state, i think the first Samatha Rupa Jhana will be a real taste of bliss out of turning away from sensuality but i would know for sure because i havent tried it.
Thanks.

:anjali:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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